new locomotives

[Kevin Strong]

... Some DCC experts have purported that the unit (I'm going to call it "Quasinami") is integral to the correct running of the motor. In essence, if you rip out the "Quasinami" then the motor won't run right! ... 

I'd have to disagree with the "experts" on this one. (A) A simple DC motor doesn't care what the voltage looks like coming into it, it merely needs to be some form of DC. (B) Anything other than a simple DC motor would cost significantly more money. (C) Bachmann ain't about spending money. Is the motor in the DCC-compatible Shay any different than any of the other motors? Probably not in the least.

That's not to say the electronics controlling the motor wouldn't be particular, but if you're installing R/C, chances are good you're going to rip out all the electronics anyway.

Later,

K

[Steve Stockham]

  Obviously, we will have to wait until Bachmann is cleared to talk about the K-27 (absolutely incredible that WE can discuss it, know it's approximate arrival date, argue about what will or won't be included, make suggestions, etc... and Bachmann is precluded from even mentioning the K-27!! )
  It's interesting that DCC pundits see our postings of our reservations as "hostile"(!) "Threats?" No threats. Just a simple statement of our position and our probable reaction should Bachmann ignore a significant portion of the largescale buying public!
  Other manufacturers have tried to introduce "proprietary" systems only to have the buying public reject them! I would hope that Bachmann's executives would not make the same mistake as those other manufacturers. Since I'm not going to change your opinion, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

[David Buckingham]

Hi Folks
I have a very large system indoors with 60+ locos and 20+ railcars I run 2 3 or four engine trains often from storage tracks started by closed circuit television there is NO way I can have DCC and if a loco has it fitted new I wont buy it.

Having said that I have bought four Bachmann railcars so far but to bash them to what I want must rip out all the electronics

I have four engines with soundtraxx and have to keep them at the edge of the baseboard because of the switches the 25 others with full sound are Phoenix because they do not need switches and I like them anyhow
Dave

[dougdodd]

Everyone has their preferance and we want the manufactures to build what we want. The reality is that Bachmann will build what most people will buy, not what a small group insists upon having. Any one group of railroaders, weather they are into DCC, battery, DC or RC is a minority and we all must make a buying decision based on what fits our needs best.
If Bachmann makes something that you don't want or can't use then don't buy it. But don't be mad because it wasn't built to your specs. My buying decisions are made by looking at a model and seeing if it can be modified to work for me.

Just my thoughts on the subject
Doug Dodd

[Steve Stockham]

Doug,
  With all due respect, the only thing I am advocating here is for a K-27 to be built without sound as an option! Anything more and I'm paying for something I don't need or want! If Bachmann wants to promote this new OEM DCC sound system then that's what they will do but it doesn't work with my r/c battery set up! Please don't forget our segment of the "buying public"! That's all.
David,
  Can you clarify why you need switches for Soundtraxx but not for Phoenix? (I'm confused...)

[Matthew (OV)]

Steve:

He's talking about the Phoenix auto shut-down, vice the power switch on the Sierra system.

Others:  If the K-27 arrives with a proprietary drive system and sound that cannot be removed to allow conventional or R/C operation, as rabid a fan of the project as I've been since its inception, I will not buy one.  Instead I'll take the money it'd take to buy and throw away equipment I can't use, and put it with the money for the major surgery to replace things like the motor and/or gearbox, and buy a locomotive that doesn't require that kind of headache.  And, that the proprietary DCC sound and control system allows some limited functionality or use with conventional control, or some kind of limited adaptability to R/C will not change my mind.

I can't imagine that while it's certainly not applaudatory, that my position could be construed as a threat of any kind. 

I suppose that if there really were an overwhelming majority of large scalers who used traditional track power and/or R/C compared to the number of those who use DCC,  that there might be a problem... but if there really were any chance that this locomotive's success would be jeopardized by making it impractical for the majority of potential customers and users, there's no way Bachmann would ever even consider making it that way, right?

What I don't get is why DCC people can't add their decoders and sound the way everyone else adds R/C and/or sound.... or not.  That way nobody has to feel threatened, and everyone gets what works best for them .... though I suppose the proprietors of the proprietary stuff might have to find another avenue to make money. 

Tell you what.  Just to be sporting... I'll sign up to pay a $25.00 surcharge NOT to have proprietary unremovable DCC in my locomotive.  It's not the $100.00 that a quasainami would fetch, and it's not however much more than that the exclusive proprietary drive would bring in .... but on the bright side, the proprietors would get their money without the expense of actually designing and building anything ... and who knows, we might actually get our locomotives by Christmas that way too!

Sheesh.

Matthew (OV)

[David Buckingham]

Phoenix do not need an off switch
Soundtraxx drain battery very quickly so switch is needed.

As I cant reach most of mine I use Phoenix

I dont mind if DCC is included as long as provision is made to bypass it.

Same with the cut down sound system would bypass that.

OK if did not have to pay for it as it is scrap to me.

Still the vast Mojority are DC
Dave

[Steve Stockham]

Ah! Thanks for the clarification on the Phoenix/Sierra issue. Kevin, I've done some research and apparently there is something called SUSI which is used in 0 Scale in which the DCC system interfaces with the motor! It is an integral part of the motor and when removed, seriously degrades the operation of the motor!
  If anybody has any experience with this please chime in! There have been "rumblings" that certain people are pushing Bachmann to introduce something like this in Large Scale. If this is indeed the case and there are no provisions for models without this system, then it could be a fiasco of major proportions! This K-27 is a BIG gamble for Bachmann! They need this one to be a grand slam and foisting off a new system that alienates a segment of the buying public would be........."inadvisable" in the extreme!

[Hunt]

Steve,
Using DCC … a  DCC decoder interfaces with the motor’s brushes and output from the decoder controls the motor --- always has.

The purpose of the SUSI interface is to facilitate a connection to a locomotive decoder and provide better control of sound and other function modules. The quality of the sound effects depends on the SUSI module used and not on the decoder controlling the locomotive’s movement.  This allows select of the motor control for the model and the sound one wants even if they are from different manufacturers provided each supports SUSI .  Thus SUSI is a way not to have all the controls of features and functions built into a single DCC decoder.

Here is some technical info about SUSI (Serial User Standard Interface)  http://www.tonystrains.com/download/man_susi_1.31.pdf

Steve, I again suggest you, and the like minded, drop the adversarial tone and theme. State in a positive manner the specific features and functions you would like a large-scale product from Bachmann to have.

[David Buckingham]

I would like to see a central board in a loco for plugs or screw connecters.
You plug in
Motor
Track/battery/radio control/DCCetc
Sound

This would mean you covered all bases without having to rip out most of the wiring.
If all were routed through the plug board it would be very easy to change opitions.
Another point if the manufacturer wanted to supply sound and  or DCC
separatly all you would have to do is plug it in

I think it would also be easier for the manufacturer as he could say it is ready for everything without hassle and maybe even cheaper to produce this way.
Any thoughts on this method folks
Dave

[Steve Stockham]

Hunt,
  Adversarial to whom? Bachmann? No. IF there are certain individuals that are pushing to have this new system installed in every largescale model engine (starting with the K-27) then I would like to positively state my objections!!!
  Seriously though, my only request is that the models come with a soundless option so that we "neanderthals" can still use our Sierras with r/c battery without having to rip out something that we had to pay $$$$ for simply because we had no choice! I think it's great that this new technology is being developed! I'm all for those of you that wish to utilize it to have it but please allow those of us that already have something that works well for us to have ours as well! There, that's as positive as I can get until we have some clarification from Bachmann!

[r.cprmier]

Guilford Guy;
For what it is worth, I have always maintained that there are two checks and balances in this hobby; one is going to be the demand/supply, but the other is that the majority of hobby spent money is discretionary-that is, I don't know too many people that would spend money on a hobby that should be spent on a higher priority expenditure.

Now, that, coupled witih the aspect of competition-which I am sure can be cutthroat, considering there are at this time, no train-based cartels-should keep the prices pretty well in check.  Maybe I am wrong, but I do have faith.  You and I live in a fairly high-priced part of the country (CT?) and as such, some judicious shopping should be the "mode d'jour".

RIch

RIch

[samevans]

I think a vital point is being missed here.  A non X- fitted loco can be fitted whith WHATEVER system after market, that the purchaser desires.  It therefore is more flexible and one is not paying for what one does not want or need.

By all means offer an OEM fitted version at extra cost for those that want it but I would go for a non fited version so that I could tailor the add ons to my specific situation. 

Fitting passive sockets for systems, providing that they do not interfere with the running of the loco if not required is one thing but.....I f I gather correctly not all control/sound systema are compatible (ah  standardised sockets).  Some one will most likely have their nose put out of joint whatever is done.

Sam E   

[Tim Brien]

Sam,
        no one is missing anything.  The 'problem' boils down to what camp you are on.  Those with a DCC prediliction are want to favour everything coming out of Bachmann with DCC onboard.  Those who favour track or battery power are saying to Bachmann before you tread this path think of the damage to potential sales.  Part of LGB's woes may be directly attributable to Lehmann stuffing mandatory 'DCC' in our faces and not offering analogue equivalents.  DCC afficiandos are in the minority and yet it seems that a very vocal lobby group is pushing hard for standard fitting of onboard DCC.



            For the majority track/battery power hobbyists,  the 'modified' Sierra-based sound system is woefully inadequate and for battery power followers the sound unit is incompatible.  The future of manufacturers in this hobby is giving the customer what he wants and not making him pay for what the sound manufacturer wants.  A battery user will need to gut the DCC and original factory supplied sound before converting to radio control.  A track power user will need to tolerate the inadequacies of the factory-supplied sound unit (regardless of the positive views expressed by some of the supposed quality of the factory onboard sound unit).



               All people are asking for is the ability to make a choice.  To offer some models only with onboard DCC and sound fitted, as standard, will limit potential sales.  There is no predjudice here about one operating system or another,  simply the right to be able to make a choice and get what one pays for,  without having to gut a loco of redundant factory-supplied 'extras', at cost to the consumer.

[ggbp]

I would prefer the option for with/without sound.  I like to watch them run, the sound doesn't really matter to me.  I have no interest in paying extra for something I will not utilize.