DC loco runs in reverse when used with DCC System

[Joe Satnik]

Dear All,

I have new 44212 controllers to sell.  Email me with zip code for Fedex ground estimate.  Addy 8 posts above. 

If you wanted me to do the cuts and jumps to change the direction, I would do so for you or anyone else on the board at no extra charge.

Bob, as long as your Magnum controller DC outputs float, (ungrounded) you should be able to wire a jack "+" to the ring and "-" to the shank.  The tip should remain unconnected, which means that your EZ-Command unit would have to have its transformer plugged in to work.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik
   

[Yampa Bob]

Thanks for the offer, but I have a controller on the way. Added to some other stuff I needed was enough to get free shipping.

I suggested modifiying the DC controller only as a workaround for the problem. However, that doesn't really solve the problem. It's like doing surgery on a toe to fix a hangnail on a finger, and I probably should not have suggested it. Chalk it up to "thinking out loud". 

We know that some locomotives, tenders and accessories are shipped with incorrect wiring.  Who is to say the DCC remotes in question are not also wired incorrectly?  This might go undetected unless a DC controller was added to the mix. 

It was noted earlier that switching track terminal connections make the turnout work properly.  Therefore, wouldn't it be more logical to simply switch the decoder power input wires in the turnout? 

When troubleshooting, I concentrate on the obvious first, (is it plugged in) then work toward the obscure. At this point, I still believe the turnout needs to be rewired to be compatible with the rest of the system rather than the opposite approach.

To my knowledge, this has been the first occurrence of this problem brought to the attention of the board, there could be many other occurrences we just haven't as yet heard about.

[Jim Banner]

dc locomotive problem
hawaiiho does not have any problems with his dc locomotives.  They all  run backwards in relation to the markings on his dc controller.  And he has already explained that - he had to reverse the connections to his tracks to make his DCC controlled turnouts work.

DCC turnout problem
I am not overly familiar with Bachmann's DCC controlled turnouts.  But I assume the built in decoder is connected internally to the rails and that there is no external wiring required.  Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

If this is the case, the decoder should not be phase ("polarity") sensitive.  Close your eyes and visualize  a long run of straight track with an industry on each side of it.  Imagine that the first industry has a facing point left hand turnout leading into a stub siding.  Then imagine that the second industry has a trailing point left hand turnout leading into its stub siding.   The diagram below shows what I have in mind.
                             _____________________
_________________/_______________________________________
                                       ___________________/   

The important thing here is that the two turnouts are identical left hand units but in are installed in the opposite direction.  This means that any DCC signal and power that they get from the rails are opposite in phase.  And yet would we fully expect both of them to work.

That, and the lack of previous reports of phase problems with DCC turnouts make me strongly suspect that one or both of the DCC turnouts in question is/are faulty.  I would suggest removing them from the layout and testing them one at a time.  While under test, the only track that should be connected to the turnout is a terminal/rerailler section for connecting DCC power.  Needless to say, both turnouts would have to be tested with both connector orientations, a total of four test.  I hope hawaiiho will take the time to do these tests and let us know the results.  It would be educational for all of us.       

[Yampa Bob]

Jim,
I read the entire thread and noticed this comment by Hawaii in his third post. The first sentence caught my attention.

(quote)
"The DCC controlled turnouts would not function properly for more than one cycle of the turn outs. So, I had to turn over the power cable to make the DCC turnouts operate. That caused the DC locomotives to reverse."
(/quote)

I have no idea how the decoder is wired.  In my mind I see two wires for track power, and 3 wires to the solenoid, just like a regular remote turnout is wired to a selector switch from the AC accessory terminals.  Now this is a long shot, but I'm grasping at straws.

What if......One decoder track wire (input) is connected to the solenoid in error, and one of the decoder solenoid wires (output) is connected to the track in error?

Hmm, nope, that might explain the "one cycle", but still doesn't explain why reversing the terminal wires makes it work ok. 

I agree the turnout is probably defective, but will a replacement be any different.?

My poor old brain is fried, not used to this much thinking. 

[Joe Satnik]

Bob, Jim, Hawaii, All,

Are the solenoids Atlas type Dual AC (3-wire) or LGB type single DC (2-wire)?

Is the DC offset causing the problem?

I would suggest 2 more batteries of tests, same as above, but with DC controller full forward, then full reverse. 

Looking at Jim's EZ-Command Power Supply diagram, it looks like

a +DC controller track output forces the positive rail of the EZ-command more positive, but doesn't affect the negative rail.   

Likewise,

a -DC controller track output forces the negative rail of the EZ-command more negative, but doesn't affect the positive rail.

Perhaps the "kick" for the solenoid is taken from one polarity or the other, and the DC offset diminishes that polarity in one direction and enhances it in the other. 

Another thought, could the electrical noise of the DC engine's brushes be confusing the turnout's decoder?

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[Jim Banner]

Joe, the DCC turnouts are neither 3 wire nor two wire.  They are controlled by a built in DCC decoder.  To quote the description of the turnouts no special wiring or control boxes needed.  Click on the link below for more information:

http://modeltrains.about.com/b/2008/04/23/dcc-turnouts-from-bachmann.htm

Bob, on rereading hawaiiho's description of the problem I am left wondering what he meant by "functioning for one cycle."  To me a single cycle would be throwing one way and then throwing back again to the original position.  "Cycle" comes from "circle" and one cycle means going through a series of processes until you reach the starting point again.  Think about a single cycle of ac voltage or current.  We start at zero, go up to a positive peak, then down through zero to a negative peak and back to zero.     But maybe hawaiiho was trying to tell us that his turnout will throw one way but not throw back again.  What do you think?

[Yampa Bob]

Without asking him, I think he means throws one way then goes dead. To you and me that would be a "half-cycle".

I was referring to the three wires that run from a selector switch to a standard turnout solenoid, thus three wires from the decoder to accomplish the same action.  May not be actual wires, maybe the decoder and solenoid are integrated on a pc board.  As "Schultz" would say, "I know nuuuuthing".

I believe he plans to contact service tomorrow, I know he is very busy at this time.  You might say I'm just acting as his "interpreter".   

If service sends replacements, and they work ok, then we may never know what the problem is/was.  As one member recently told me, many consider a decoder just another mechanical device, plug it in it works. If it doesn't work send it back. In other words, the good old KISS approach.

[Joe Satnik]

Jim,

Just brainstorming about the internals.  I understand that it's all integrated. 

The decoder still has to energize some kind of motor.  Thought the actual wires to the motor might be visible, or visible after a cover is removed, or that the motor might look exactly like the non-DCC turnout, enough to give us a clue.   

"Note: E-Z Command Turnouts are not for use in DC power pack operations."

Perhaps this quote even refers to having the 44212 plugged in to the EZ-Command, which Bob asked about in an earlier post to this thread.

Hope this helps. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[hawaiiho]

I will reply to all the recent posts in one message and save space.

I have tried the DCC turnouts separately. No difference.

By "cycle", I mean both ways. I have two DCC turnouts. The third time that I try to use either of the DCC turnouts(not even just

the same DCC turnout), they will both fail to respond. Turning over the power connector to the track cures that problem.

If it were electrical noise causing that problem, then it is electrical noise that is common to every DC locomotive that I have plus

a brand new Bachmann DC locomotive that belongs to my grandson. Not impossible, but why would Bachmann suggest

using the  DC controller through the DCC EZ Command using the provided interconnect cable, if it caused this kind of problem?

The reversing of the trains relative to the arrows on the DC controller; again, this involves all DC trains, older and newer. Again,

turning over the power feed to the track fixes this, but then the DCC turnouts start doing their thing.

I called Bachmann Tech this morning. He said he had no clue, but would research it with others in the department and email me.

He did say that he thought it "unlikely" that it was faulty DCC turnouts, since they came from different sources.

[Yampa Bob]

Hawaii
If I read your post corrrectly, if you unplug the DC controller from the EZ Command, then the turnouts still don't function properly without switching the terminal connections....is that correct? If not, please unplug the DC controller, then try to operate the turnouts.  Then switch terminal wires and try them again.

If the turnouts still malfunction with DC controller unplugged, let's eliminate the DC controller from the equation, and concentrate solely on the turnout and EZ Command.  When I troubleshoot, I make notes as I go. Let's summarize.

1. The note Joe mentioned says "Not for use in DC power pack operations". Since a DC pack is not being used, the DC controller is supposed to work in conjunction with DCC turnouts. (I'm trying to refrain from using the word "assume")

2.  As Jim reminded us, orientation of the turnout shouldn't matter, the turnout should not be polarity sensitive. If the two turnouts are being used in a crossover configuration, and the turnouts are polarity sensitive, then switching terminal wires would make one turnout work, the other wouldn't work, and vice versa. This raises the question: When terminal wires are switched, does it affect both turnouts or just one or the other?

3. These particular turnouts are polarity sensitive, for reasons unknown.

4.  Since the track is powered DCC, and not DC, I'm thinking the DC controller should not be polarity sensitive either. I would think the EZ Command has sensing circuitry so that the direction switch would not be affected by track connections.

5.  If we ignore the turnouts, the DC controller does control all the DC locomotives, and frees up address 10 for another DCC locomotive.

6.  If replacement turnouts correct the problem, then the original turnouts are defective.  If replacements do not fix the problem, we are left with two conclusions.
   A.  All DCC turnouts are defective. (though no other reports like this one)In this case "source" is immaterial.
   B.  The EZ Command is defective.   

7.  One remote possibility...could there be a high resistance short , or a high resistance open, somewhere in the tracks, that is affecting the decoders?

[hawaiiho]

Bob, I hope I have all this straight. I tried so many things, I' getting it all mixed together.  Everything worked fine UNTIL I connected the DC controller and the DCC controller together using the interconnect cable per Bachmann EZ Command Manual. When I did that, the DC  loco ran backwards, compared to the indicating arrows on the DC controller. So, as one would do with any DC controller where the loco ran backward, I  reversed the power connection to the track by turning over the connector. That corrected the direction reversal, but that is when the DCC turnout went flakey. When I got my second DCC turnout, I replaced the original turnout with the new one--same results. I then installed both turnouts--same result. I have tried two different DC controllers(mine and the one that came with my grandson's Christmas present. I have tried the DCC turnouts, one at a time and both together. The only thing that corrects both problems is to separate the DC and DCC controllers by removing the interconnect cable, returning DC loco control to channel 10 of the DCC controller and using the DC controller only as a power supply for the remote turnouts.

I hope that covers every thing without getting to far into detail.

[Jim Banner]

hawaiiho, you have stated the problem very well.  Those of us who are trying to help have not always read the details correctly, but that is not unusual in a complex problem.  But I am left with one question - is the Bachmann dc power pack you are using the model 44212?  Bachmann has produced many other power packs over the years, including some that look identical to the 44212, but the 44212 is the only one reccmmended for use with the E-Z Command.

[Yampa Bob]

Hawaii wrote: "Everything worked fine UNTIL I connected the DC controller". That is the information I wanted.   

Three concerns:
1. You are powering the DC controller with the supplied transformer, correct?

2.  Before you plugged the DC controller into the EZ command, you were powering the EZ Command with its own transformer, re "Everything worked fine".

3.  Before you plugged the DC controller into EZ Command, did you by any chance forget to unplug the EZ Command transformer plug from the "AC IN" jack?

It's an easy oversight, the picture at the bottom of page 6 (picture number 17) is rather small, and the note about powering EZ Command THROUGH the DC controller is on page 7, there should be a big bold warning.

When I first read the manual months ago, I was not interested in adding a DC controller, and with only a quick glance, I erroneously thought both transformers to be used.

[hawaiiho]

I saw the note, plus, any time I work on ANYTHING electrical, I unplug it first. A throw back to my Ham gear.

Some of those transformers could really "bite".

[Yampa Bob]

Ok, it was just a long shot, I can't think of anything else.