Scale of Bachmann Big Hauler Engines, Passenger Coaches, and Rolling Stock

[jviss]

Apologies if this has been covered before, my search mojo is waning lately.

Running the Big Hauler with my grandson Sunday, just lounging on the floor and eye-balling them, it seems to me the scale of these pieces vary.  I'm sure there are experts here who know, and I would love to learn what we have.

My inventory:

Big Hauler PRR set, circa ~1994
4-6-0 loco, gen. 3, with tender
passenger coach
observation car w/ drumhead

(Big Hauler Emmett Kelly, Jr., set, about the same vintage, but not the subject of this post)

Purchased separately:
Item No. 93114 'G' Four Wheel Caboose (Pennsylvania)
Item No. 98214 'G' 3 Bay Hopper Car (Pennsylvania)
Item No. 93814 'G' 8-Wheel Center Cupola Wood Caboose (Pennsylvania)
Item No. 97197 'G' Combine w/Lights (PRR Tuscan Red)
Item No. 93253 Doublemint Gum Bill Board Reefer
Item No. 93938 Open Streetcar United Traction Co.
Item No. 993433 Single Dome Tank Car (Dad's Rootbeer)

It seems the passenger cars are a different scale - maybe 1:24 or even 1:29?  The reefer also looks small.  Or maybe the cabooses and engine are bigger.  

I assumed that all were 1:22.5, but now it looks odd to me.  Maybe it's just my lack of knowledge of real railroads.

Thanks,

jv

[Chuck N]

This question opens a large can of worms.  There is no one answer, scale, that represents all of your rolling stock.  My opinion, for what it is worth, is that they are a mix of 1:22.5 and 1:24.  I have not checked the dimensions of the 4-6-0, but I have been told by some that it is 1:22.5 and is based on the "Tweetsie" narrow gauge running now in Boone, North Carolina on a tourist railroad.  This engine ran on the ET&NC railroad in western North Carolina and eastern Tennessee.

If it is lettered for a standard gauge locomotive, Pennsylvania, B&O, etc., it would be a different scale as the prototype would have had different dimensions.

As to the cars, you would have to find prototypes and compare dimensions.  Many large scale freight cars, LGB, Bachmann, USAt (American series), and Delton are 1:24.  This is based on a narrow gauge (generally D&RGW) car body length of 30'.  I have measured the length of some of these cars and they are about 14.5" and this works out to about 1:24.

I have not had a chance to measure the Bachmann passenger cars and compare them to the D&RGW cars.  My guess it that they are about 1.24.

Your PRR cars are an unknown scale because they are based on narrow gauge cars lettered for a standard gauge railroad.  As an example I have a B&O USAt American series box car (said  by USAt to be 1:24).  It too is 14.5" long.  A standard gauge car of this type would have been 40' long.  This makes the car 1:32.  This matches for length, the the width and height would be a different scale.

In my experience I like the look when I run 1:22.5 and 1:24 engines and cars.  I usually use 1:22.5/24 when referring to the cars and engines you have in your collection.  In my mind, I do not like the visual look I get when I mix 1:20.3 (Spectrum engines and cars) with 1:22.5/24 rolling stock.  Some people don't mind mixing, but I prefer not to.

I hope this helps some, but it is a complicated issue.  To know what you really have you need to do some research and compare dimensions of your car, engine to the dimensional data of a similar looking prototype.

Chuck

[Chuck N]

There is a similar question being discussed over on <mylargescale.com>

http://forums.mylargescale.com/29-beginner-s-forum/8330-what-scale-bachmann-big-haulers.html

There one poster says that the BH passenger cars scale out at 1:24 in some dimensions but are about 6 scale feet short.

Chuck

[Loco Bill Canelos]

You can also do a search of this forum on the word "Scale"    You will get unrelated answers but also the many discussions (arguments?) about what scale various items are going back many years.   

Many narrow gauge prototypes did vary greatly in relative size.  Looking at old pictures really shows some surprising size differences even in box car sizes.   Some passenger and freight cars were even home made in company shops.

To me the passenger cars look great behind the 4-6-0, but that is only my opinion!!

Enjoy

Bill

[Kevin Strong]

4-6-0 loco, gen. 3, with tender
1:22.5, based on the East Tennessee & Western North Carolina 4-6-0. Fairly accurate model in 1:22.5

passenger coach, observation car w/ drumhead
If you go solely by the height of the door, the car is 1:22.5. That's the "human element" aspect of the car, so that tends to be what I go by in such cases. Compared to the prototype which would be around 8' wide and 35 - 36' long over the carbody (i.e. minus platforms), the car is definitely short by about 5' give or take, and about 8" too narrow. It would better match 1:24 dimensions for width, and still be short.

Note that all the passenger equipment (baggage, coach, combine, and observation) use the same frame, floor, and roof, so they all have the same overall measurements. There may or may not be a single specific prototype for any or all of these cars, but they follow closely to known examples.


(Big Hauler Emmett Kelly, Jr., set, about the same vintage, but not the subject of this post)
If it's the same 4-6-0, it's still a model of the ET&WNC loco, just painted differently.

Item No. 93114 'G' Four Wheel Caboose (Pennsylvania)
1:22.5, modeled after the ET&WNC bobber caboose

Item No. 98214 'G' 3 Bay Hopper Car (Pennsylvania)
We'll call this one 1:22.5. It's modeled after the East Broad Top's 3-bay hopper. From a measurement standpoint, the car is the right width for 1:22.5, the right height for 1:24, and the right length for 1:20.3! However, since there are "proper" 1:20.3 EBT 3-bay hoppers which positively dwarf this car, it's definitely more in line with smaller scales.

Item No. 93814 'G' 8-Wheel Center Cupola Wood Caboose (Pennsylvania)
1:22.5; based on an EBT caboose.

Item No. 97197 'G' Combine w/Lights (PRR Tuscan Red)
See notes on passenger cars above.

Item No. 93253 Doublemint Gum Bill Board Reefer
We run into a similar issue here as we do with the passenger cars, in that many of Bachmann's freight cars use the same basic components in terms of frames and things like that, so their overall sizes will be nearly identical to one another regardless of the prototype upon which the model may be based. In the case of the reefer, the only narrow gauge railroad that had a fleet of reefers was the D&RGW, so one can make a strong argument that this car is a model of that reefer. That would put the scale of this car at 1:24 to be a closest match to the prototype. The box car and stock car are identical in size, but are much more generic in appearance, and closely match know prototypes in both 1:22.5 and 1:24.

Item No. 93938 Open Streetcar United Traction Co.
I've not taken a ruler to this one, but I'd imagine the same applies to this as do the passenger cars; probably compressed, but easily workable for 1:22.5 and 1:24.

Item No. 993433 Single Dome Tank Car (Dad's Rootbeer)
There's no specific prototype for this car that I've been able to locate, though similar to a handful. The frame is the same size as the box car, stock car, and reefer, so plausible in both 1:22.5 and 1:24 (and arguably 1:20) The tank itself scales out well for tanks found on narrow gauge cars in 1:24, 1:22.5, and 1:20.

The bottom line is that there was (is) a tremendous amount of variation in terms of the size of narrow gauge equipment. Narrow gauge lines were very isolated from each other, and tended to do things to suit their own specific needs. Some larger railroads had fleets of rolling stock that was generally the same dimensions, but they were historically the exception to the rule. (They are, however, the most popular narrow gauge railroads modeled, so when it comes to modeling, the exception has the appearance of being the rule.)

It's an odd paradox in large scale. Many folks run what they want based on what looks good to them. Quite often, this means strings of equipment that is all nominally the same overall size. The folks who tend to be the scale modelers end up with trains full of equipment varying in size greatly from one car to the next.

Later,

k

[jviss]

Kevin, thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to lay it all out for me, and to share your obvious deep knowledge of this topic!  Wow.

I have questions!  So, I take it that the 4-6-0 and much of the cars are taken from narrow gauge prototypes?  What about the PRR passenger coaches, are they also based on narrow gauge?  Was there a PRR narrow gauge passenger line in reality?

I guess a rail gauge of 1.6" would be perfect!  And, 2.5" for the standard gauge models.  Has anyone ever done this?  Just fanciful thinking.  I know there were 2.5" gauge trains before the WWII, but it's rather obscure at this time.  I haven't ever seen 1.6" gauge.

I wonder what the scale of my Bachmann figures is - the fireman, conductor, etc.?

[Chuck N]

If you wanted to have standard gauge cars, engines, and track in the same scale as your narrow gauge stock, you would have to scratch build everything.  The correct scale for standard gauge rolling stock on our 45 mm gauge track is 1:32.  Many of us run modern standard gauge trains on 45mm gauge track that are 1:29 scale.  That is not a correct scale, but many of us like it and there is a lot of rolling stock available.

This gives us a size reversal.  Big appears little and little appears big.  In the real world standard gauge cars and engines dwarf narrow gauge rolling stock.  But in "G" narrow gauge engines and cars are larger than the standard gauge cars.

As to the scale of your figures, that depends on how tall you think they are in real life.  Do the calculation.  Measure the height if your figures and then multiply by the various scales; 20.3, 22.5, 24, 29, and 32.  The answer to each calculation will tell you the height in the real world (1:1) of that figure, in that scale.  There is a wide variation in the height of adult males.  Your figures may be short in 1:20.3 and giants in 1:32.

Chuck

Unlike other scales O, S, HO, N, etc., which change the gauge of the track for narrow gauge trains and standard gauge trains, we in "G" change the scale and keep the gauge constant.  That way we can run different trains, narrow gauge and standard gauge on the same track.  This is confusing to newcomers and to us at times.

I like it because I enjoy both standard gauge models and narrow gauge trains.  I don't need to have two different layouts with different gauges.  I would not have the variation in rolling stock that I do if I had to choose standard gauge or narrow gauge in a single scale, such as 1:20.3.

[mickeykelley]

So just as a matter of curiosity, if you did a standard gauge in 1.20 and set it next to say a 2 truck Shay, which to me is pretty big in handling, carrying, etc., would the Shay look like the 440 compared to the Shay as they are in the 1.20 or would it be even larger in relationship. Just trying to get my mind around just how much bigger standard is compared to narrow.  I know I've seen the old chart that shows them all, but that just doesn't get my mind really comprehending it.

[Chuck N]

Mickey the answer is yes.


Chuck

[mickeykelley]

Wow. Now I'd love to see a big boy done at 1.20!  I guess it would need more than 8' diameter curves. 😱

[Chuck N]

Mickey, according to a Google search, the BB is 132' long.  That would be 6.5' in 1:20.3, 4.6' in 1:29, and 4.1' in 1:32.

Chuck

[charon]

Mickey,
If you go to cumberlandmodelengineeering.com they have a picture of a 1/20.3 4-8-4 standard gauge next to a 1/20.3 2-8-2 narrow gauge.
Chuck

[Joe Satnik]

working link for CME:

http://cumberlandmodelengineering.com/

[Kevin Strong]

I have questions!  So, I take it that the 4-6-0 and much of the cars are taken from narrow gauge prototypes?  What about the PRR passenger coaches, are they also based on narrow gauge?  Was there a PRR narrow gauge passenger line in reality?

The PRR coaches are repaints of models of narrow gauge coaches. The PRR did operate narrow gauge railroads--the Waynesburg & Washington, and Ohio River & Western Railroads. (There may have been others, too.) When the PRR took over those operations, the equipment got repainted for "Pennsylvania." So--yes--there were narrow gauge passenger cars lettered for "Pennsylvania." They may bear a resemblance to the Bachmann model, but none of which I have seen photos match exactly the Bachmann coach. When LGB painted their mogul for the PRR (unprototypically in tuscan red), they at least numbered it accurately for a W&W mogul.  

I guess a rail gauge of 1.6" would be perfect!  And, 2.5" for the standard gauge models.  Has anyone ever done this?  Just fanciful thinking.  I know there were 2.5" gauge trains before the WWII, but it's rather obscure at this time.  I haven't ever seen 1.6" gauge.

2.5" gauge is called "Gauge 3" (aka Scale II), and is 1.22.5 standard gauge. You'll sometimes see 45mm gauge track referred to as "Scale IIm", which is 1:22.5, meter gauge. That was LGB's rationale behind choosing that gauge of track for their models of narrow gauge trains.

I wonder what the scale of my Bachmann figures is - the fireman, conductor, etc.?

People come in all shapes and sizes. Take a ruler and measure the figures, then see how tall they are in 1:24, 1:22.5 and 1:20.3. There's your answer. That doesn't mean that you can populate your 1:20 railroad with 1:24 figures, mind you, because while people do come in different shapes and sizes, there are limits and proper proportions to take into consideration. Fortunately(?) some figures tend to look a bit cartoonish, and you can also fudge a little bit in background scenes or passenger car interiors, etc.

Later,

K

[Chuck N]

Kevin

Can you post Scot's scale illustration?  I think it would help.  My version is giving me posting problems.  It is a gif file, and MLS  doesn't like it and I'm having problems converting it to  jpg.

Chuck