bachmann passenger cars

[ironlake]

will the bachman d&rg passenger look small behind my K27?  One dealer tells me I have to get a accrucraft car for over 200.00 to look to scale is that correct.

[the Bach-man]

Dear Iron Lake,
Our cars are 1:22.5 scale; the Accucraft cars are 1:20.3, 10% bigger.
With a large loco like the K-27, I think they look better.
Have fun
the Bach-man

[armorsmith]

Ironlake,

Although the cars are smaller, unless you are an 'Ironclad Rivet Counter' (pun intended), I don't really think it makes that much difference.  I don't own any Accucraft passenger equipment.  Quite frankly, my hobby budget will not stand for the pricing of Accucraft. Would I like to have them, sure.  I run a consist of a boxcar (for battery power), a combine, 3 coaches and an observation, all Bachman, purchased off eBay as a set for less that the cost of two Bachmann coach kits.  I can overlook the small difference in scale, especially considering most of my running is done at our club layout or on a road show where entertaining the children is more of the priority.  And trust me, I have never had one say 'Hey, those scales don 't match!'.

One day I will scratch a set in 1:20.3, bur for now ......

Bob C.

[tac]

It's not simply a matter of a minor difference in scale here, Gentlemen.  The Bachmann Jackson-Sharp cars are not only made to a scale of 1/22.5, they are also, ahem, rather squished in length from the actual scale length - to the extent that they are either three of four windows too short, so I'm told.  An article in GR a few years back showed how to make correct length cars by cutting and splicing.  You do that, Kevin?

On the other paw, the 1/20.3 cars are not only larger because of the scale difference, they are actually no-compromise 99% accurate scale models of the full-length cars in their own right.  Yup, they are BIG, but then again, they are basically a full-size car running on three-foot trucks, so they ARE going to be be lot more bulky than the weedy little 1/22.5 all-squished-up versions.   

So the correct 1/20th scale cars look not only better, but are correct to go behind your K27/K-27. 

Just in case you all think I've got a does of the snooties - I have to tell you that right now I have my WP Annie and six Bachmann J-S cars running on one direction, and my AccuCraft K27/K-27 and cars running in the opposite direction on our little track here in sunny East Anglia UK.

Both trains look good and both trains look correct.

...with the correct-scale cars, that is.

tac
OVGRS.org

[Chuck N]

When I first got my Bachmann connie I tried pulling some LGB D&RGW passenger cars with it and I didn't like the look.  At least to me, they appeared way to small.  The connie is a smaller engine than the K-27.  Perhaps by having a box car (battery) it will break up the sight lines enough that the size difference between the passenger cars and the engine won't be as noticeable.

Just remember, it is your railroad and if you think it looks fine, that is all that matters.  I think that a 1:20.3 box car would be better than a 1:22.5/24 box car right behind the tender.  I say 1:22.5/24 because the LGB, USAt, and Delton narrow gauge box cars all scale out at 1:24.  Delton said theirs were 1:24,  and the assumption is that the LGB and USAt cars were 1:22.5.  They aren't.

Unfortunately, I do not have a Bachmann big hauler box car to measure so I don't know it length to see how it compared to the others.

Chuck

[gunrunner]

the big hauler and delton box cars are near clones
1/16 here, 1/8 there
in 1/24 they make a 30 foot car, great for d&rgw fans
however
if you couple a box car to a bachman coach, the box is about 1" too tall
(based on my eyeball)
the real box cars are dinky, easy to fix with a table saw
also by eyeball, the rooftops of the real durango & silverton coaches (whatever they are)
"appear" to be even with the top of a real k-36 cab

[Bucksco]

We are aware that our original Big Hauler series were built to 1:22.5. If Bachmann were to produce 1:20.3 scale Passenger cars they would have a detail level and suggested retail similar to that of our 1:20.3 Long Caboose which is over $200. Should Bachmann go out on that limb and invest a lot of capitol on something that at the moment has already been done and has a limited market (Large scale just isn't what it used to be folks....)

10 foot rule. In the garden everything looks good from 10 feet away...

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Sadily our Large Scale Hobby is very small and from what I see large scale clubs are filled with "Old Guy's" 55yo on up,Im' 72.  I rarely see young folks go into the large scale side once they grow out of Thomas. I belong to a small scale club where I am the only guy in large scale.  In HO an N they seem to have every model of steam engine and diesel ever made, and rolling stock to boot.  We have nice goodies but with fewer of us and prices going sky high, the market seems to be shrinking and the array of new products dwindling and prices are getting totally out of range for the younger set.  One kid 15 or 16 who visited loved my railroad, until the price of track and loco's came up and I don't even have the super expensive goodies.   He mumbled something about being able to get three really nice r/c autos for the price of one loco, and wouldn't need any track. Another twenty something has a large ready to fly R/c airplane for less than $150 which included the radio and one battery pack and charger.  He even let me fly it!!  No big trains for him, but he doesn't mind running mine(maybe he will join us when he gets older).   The other thing I hear from the young side is that it takes too much space, they have no safe out side place to set up, or cannot do it because of mobility issues.  I do keep trying to build up our Large scale side of things with the younger folks 30 to 40  years old, but haven't had any new real recruits in quite awhile.    I didn't get a K-27 because it would not fit through my tunnels on either my indoor or outdoor railroad(not to mention the price tag).   I instead changed my outdoor layout to an era from 1955 to 1965 and made it a diesel era layout. All the 1/29th scale goodies fit nicely, and a couple of GP-9s and I was in business(not good for Bachamnn tho)  I still get my steam fix on the indoor layout which is almost 100% Bachamnn. I no longer collect engines for display and keep only a few really scarce frieght cars for display.   As a guy who has the good fortune to be able to buy any large scale item I want, but I find that there are not many high price point items I really need, much less actually want.  The German large scale company who thought folks would keep buying so has to have one of every product, produced stuff in such a high quantities that they killed the market for their product when collectors realized their items were falling in value and/or they no longer had the shelf space or storage space for all of it.  Decent prices for Bachamnn starter sets helps some, but the real issue still is getting younger folks involved.   If you have any good new ideas please share them with me!!

Didn't mean to run on so much!!   Bill

[mmiller]

while we are one the subject...the other thing that seems to put off a lot of people is the limited run nature of a lot of the large scale stuff. If you see and R/C car or plane in a shop or a magazine and next year you decide you want one, chances are pretty good that want you want will still be there...

I have a Eureka and Palisades 4-4-0 on a shelf, and I've had a couple guests ask questions about it and wonder where they could get one...unfortunately I have to tell them "maybe on e-bay, they don't make them anymore"...who wants to start a new hobby, or in a new scale and not know if they can get the rolling stock they want when they get the time and money to build their garden railroad?

[Chuck N]

Bill:

I strongly agree with what you said.  Another problem, the one that started this thread, is the number of scales available and the mentioning of the scale on the box.  

Engines and cars that represent scales that are 10% different shouldn't be that noticeable.   Certainly at 10' no one would pick it out.  My problem is that cars long thought to be 1.22.5 are really 1:24.  At least that is what my measurements indicate.  That means that if you are running a 1:24 car with a 1:20.3 engine there is a 20% difference.  That is noticeable and 10' won't help very much and I'm a strong believer in the 10' rule.

A beginner may well be happy with a 1:20.3 engine and 1:24 cars for a while.  But sooner or later he will realize that something just doesn't look quite right.  When he sees trains at shows and tours where the engines and cars are matched in scale something will click.

I started measuring cars  when I discovered that my (supposed) 1:22.5 cars didn't look appropriate with my 1:20.3 engines.  At that point I had been running LGB, USA and Delton cars together and thought nothing of it.  That was supposed to be a 10% difference.  I started measuring the cars and discovered that all of the cars that were supposed to be different scales were in fact the same length (within less than 0.25").  All of those cars scaled out to 1:24.  Since they were the same scale they should look fine together, problem solved, but that made the 1:20.3 engines, 20% different.  That also explained why I didn't think that they looked OK together. 20% is very noticeable to anyone who has ever looked at a book with pictures of narrow gauge trains, or been to Durango or Chama.

The Big Hauler engines and the Annies are correctly scaled to go with the big hauler cars and look great.  My thought is that running those cars with an Fn3 (1:20.3) engine will lead to disappointment down the line.  

On my railroad I run:1:20.3, 1:22.5/24, and 1:29.  I love them all.  I just don't mix them in a single train.  I might have a 1:20.3 train and  a 1:22.5/24 train out at the same time, but I try not to park them next to each other.  As long as one is running and the other is parked the difference isn't that noticeable.

Least Bachmann think that I am picking on them, I have 5 Bachmann engines (2 K-27s, 1 Climax, 1 Shay, and 1 Big Hauler).  I also have a number of Bachmann cars.  Most are in 1:20.3 scale.

I love the long caboose (I have one D&RGW and one RGS), those are fantastic models.  In my opinion they are far superior to similar cars for another manufacturer.  

Chuck

[armorsmith]

All of what has been said so far is quite accurate.  The missing element in getting younger people involve in large scale, or model railroading whole, is purely in the prototype.  When i was a child (oh so many moons ago) the railroads still played a major role in the economy and commerce. I used to love to go to town with my grandfather (an ex Pennsy engineer on the L1s) and watch the trains. Back then there was diversity in the locomotives and rolling stock, even a few leftover billboard style cars. With the exception of NS bringing out their Legacy Fleet, everything looks the same. With all the mergers there are only a small few railroad names to look for, and rolling stock (except for some of the vandalism...er ...graffiti) are boring.  Even as a young man, two friends, my wife and myself would go 'train watching', looking for the various and sundry variations of EMD and GE locomotives in the '70's and early '80s.

The only people who seem to express any interest in my club here in the panhandle of Floria, are as Bill stated, seniors or close to.  It was also covered, but not in these words - today's young people are of the 'Instant Gratification' generation.  Unfortunately video games offer instant gratification, can be played with regardless of weather, and I could have purchased 14 or 15 top of the line games for what I paid for my K27.

Everyone here knows why, and we have all expressed one part or another.  I am sure there are other facets we have missed.

My tuppence worth.

Bob C.

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Bob,

Interesting that you mention video games, I recently tried out one of the RR simulators owned by a younger guy, I"m guessing mid 30's.  It was pretty interesting and fairly complex.  You could do switching, mainline running and even create your own situations.  I thought to myself, Gee you don't need to buy anything except the software which I think he said was about $50 or $60.  He said you could get a Shay or a SD70 MAC or whatever you heart desired.  I ran a grain train with BN SD40-2's it was fun and you could ride in the cab or view the train from outside with different views.  I could see getting into it next winter!!  Point is you don't ever need to buy ANY toy trains of any scale and you can still get a RR fix of your choice.  These simulators are getting very real and are getting better all the time.  Also no time doing heavy maintenance, cleaning track, picking nits out of switch points, and spider webs off of loco's and cars, releveling track, fighting moles, blowing debris off the track and so on.  Geez I'd better shut up before I sell everything and go 100% simulator
I did learn that running a simulator train on a mainline run over a whole subdivision in real time could put you to sleep (no offense to you who may actually do it for real) I admire those who can do it for real and stay alert the whole way as the responsibility is huge!! 

Bill

[gunrunner]

i found some drawings for a d&rg "standard" coach, whatever that is
i doubt it makes much difference
after looking them over, i have to agree with the other folks: enjoy what you have.
anything else will cost you, and is it really worth it ?
just to let you know...
the drawings show a car that is 12' tall from the top of the clerestory to the top of the rail
b-mann cars are 6".
that's 1/24 scale.
another quick check, the drawings show 8'4" wide.
b-man cars are a titch over 4", again 1/24 scale
sorry mr bach-man.
due to "creative compression," a term from Lionel's 0-27, b-mann cars are 19" vs a scale 22 1/2".
by contrast, 1:20.3 cars would be 5" x 7" x 26 1/2.
that is a big difference; since there's little agreement on scale, get some drawings and compare them to what you're paying the big bucks for.

[Chuck N]

Gunrunner:

Thanks for the measurements on the passenger car.  That supports my data; that most "1:22.5" Colorado narrow gauge cars are really 1:24 (from most of the LS manufactures).

Trying to make those look good with a 1:20.3 engine is not easy.

Chuck

[Bucksco]

At the moment it is pretty much the only game in town unless you buy the more expensive cars and honestly if Bachmann did them in 1:20.3 the detail would be great but they couldn't be done any cheaper.

Most manufacturers chose way back when to keep everything in line with "LGB Scale" because that is who built the lion's share of product and we all wanted to have our stuff run well with the other guys. Things have changed in large scale and when the large scale market grows again these cars could be a possibility but I don't see it on the horizon any time soon.....