Are turnouts power routing or not?

[Albert in N]

James, thanks for the N switch diagram with instructions.  The added terminal track to the top track of the crossover relates to what my thoughts were.   Bachmann's instructions were pretty clear to me about power routing switches and agree with that I observed on my own prior layouts and current modest layout. 

I love power routing switches (also called turnouts) since it eliminates the need for insulated rail joiners and extra wiring for most applications.   If something else works better for you, go for it.  Right now, I need to run my trains and have fun.   

[Rockdweller]

James

I only have the four EZ turnouts that came with the Bachmann 'N Scale First Railroad Track Pack' http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=3409
It only says;
'two remote turnouts - left'
'two remote turnouts - right'
no numbers are given, however as far as I can tell they are items #44861 & #44862 http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=220 & http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=221

I note the webpage says "All analog turnouts (non-DCC) require AC accessory power supply for operation"

The turnouts I have as you can see by looking at the webpage are NOT Wye.  I mentioned the No#6 to avoid confusion with the No#4 units
Looking under the turnouts I see 'K110625' stamped on the alum plate on each one. On the actual plastic under all the patent No's I see 'N Turnout Right N4861-00B01" & 'N Turnout Left N4861-00B02" (which would seem to indicate they are indeed the #44861 & #44862 units)

I have a retail pkt #44862 turnout and a retail pkt#44864 #4 turnout plus another 4 turnouts of the current type in a second "First starter kit" (cheapest way to buy them with more track) about to be posted from the US, so I am fairly keen to see it they behave differently, however they won't get here for a couple of weeks. - I'm half tempted to go and buy a retail packet one now just to see, but at the $30+ the hobby shops charge here It'll just annoy me if I do.

What we need is either;
Bachmann to clear up why we seem to have two apparently identical turnouts different behaving differently: have they changed the wiring? or does the starter kit for some reason have ones with different wiring?

or someone with a #44861 or #44862 turnout to confirm those numbers are the same and they are still power routing as previously

Finally in relation to Dessertdweller's comment's..
Theres no plastic parts/frogs (if you look at the links to the turnouts above you can see) and when I remove the plate underneath I can't see much of the actual power transfer connections, they seem to be moulded into the unit itself. I'd have to destroy the turnout by removing the track from the EZ base to see what they have done. As far as I can tell the only moving part is the mechanisation for moving the actual switch points, but as stated I can't see clearly whats going on.
My 6 wheel shunters don't like crossing the turnouts at a slow speed and stall if they don't have enough carry through motion.

[James in FL]

Our turnouts appear to be one and the same.
We are on the same page comparing apples to apples.
Thank you for confirming this.

The saga continues.
The question remains, why do our turnouts behave differently?

Here are a few pics of the internals.
These are both right hand (N4861), however, take note of the way they are wired differently from the factory.
This does not affect power routing but the points positions between the two are opposite. Note the position of the spring lever and the relation of the pinion gear to the rack on each.
What I see is an inconsistency in wiring, perhaps due to a production assembly method revision.
Either way, the turnouts function as they should and route power as expected.

You are going to have to remove a bottom plate off one of your turnouts and have a look see.
Something inside must be different between what you have and what I have.

Anybody have any pics to show anything that's different than what I have?

[Rockdweller]

One and same in name only it would appear though

Here's the picture of the ones I've got, as you can see they are quite different, not only is the switching electonics different, the cuts in the plastic with their copper leads/bus bars are also different..

In fact there's very little that yours and mine share under the cover. I see almost no common parts.





and another close up of the electrical selector switch

[Desertdweller]

Rock,

Wow!  I wish mine looked that way inside!  I can see all sorts of improvements!  Bachmann apparently put attention to the weak points of the original design.

The most obvious change is the replacement of the sometimes troublesome rocker switch with a slide switch with its own printed circuit.  But maybe even better is the fact that everything inside is screwed down: the pivot for the throw rod, the slide switch, the main printed circuit board, and the electrical connections to the rails.

On the earlier design, even the tightness of the screws holding the bottom cover plate on can have a major effect on the operation of the unit.  Too much or too little tightness on the rocker contacts and it won't work.
And with the throw rod actuator just riding on a peg, it could get out of synch.  I'm really blown away by this.

Les

[James in FL]

The nut has been cracked.
Wow indeed!

However, this opens a whole other can of worms for the consumer.

If Mr. Bachmann would be so kind as to answer...

Is it safe to assume these turnouts were indeed manufactured to be all routes live or is this fluke and thereby a QC issue with the printed circuit?
When were the all routes live turnouts released?
Are these new turnouts exclusive to the "N scale First Railroad Track Pack" or are they available as separate single items?
Why would such a significant change have not been made a public announcement? The DCC users would have welcomed this information with open arms.
How will the consumer know which type turnouts they are purchasing without first physically opening the bottom?
Will Bachmann continue to manufacturer the power routing turnouts, or has production come to an end with these?

Inquiring minds want to know...help us out here Mr. B, would you please clear this up for us?
Thanks

[Rockdweller]

yes indeed it does open a can of worms which only Mr B will be able to answer

DO we now have two types of turnouts? and how does one tell them apart when buying.

I too wonder if the ones I got in the Track Pack are meant to be the same/different to the retail skin packs.

Ironically the 'older'? power routing type are better for DC which is what I would have preferred and I have got the 'new'? live  units.
However I will use them with a DCC setup when I get it setup, so its not that big an issue for me.

[skipgear]

The wiring on the new turnout definitely is not for power routing. It looks more like the set up used in the HO version of the turnout. From what I can see, it looks like a design change to make them more friendly for the future DCC decoderized version of the turnouts. The (Non-DCC) notations on all the turnouts now would lead me to believe that there will be DCC controled versions coming in the near future. In DCC, you don't need power routing and it can actually be an annoyance.

[James in FL]

I called my LHS today and spoke with a not so knowledgeable clerk. He stated the new turnouts are now packaged in yellow as opposed to the old blue packaging; however he "guessed" the item number was unchanged.  I asked how long they had been out; his reply was "just recently".
Also said the 10in. straights were also in new yellow packaging as well.


A good excuse for me to check them out in person this upcoming weekend, and for a conversation with the owner for more information.

[the Bach-man]

Dear All,
I will check this out with Mr. Riley when he returns from Nuremberg.
Have fun!
the Bach-man

[James in FL]

I went to my LHS today and got to see for myself the new yellow packaged turnouts.
The owner let me open the blister pack and fondle the turnout.
She said this is at least the third revision of these turnouts and the external difference between the first two is the length of the point rails.

What I observed...
The part number is unchanged; the packaging now has yellow bordering instead of blue.
The packaging on the new yellow still states "not recommended for DCC".
They still have the same literature enclosed, which I posted, stating they are power routing.
The frog is not live but can be converted by moving one of the wires to join the other.

I did not buy the turnout so I have copied Rock pic.
To power the frog, connect the wires to the outbound most boss on top of the existing one
circled.

If you try this, please report back and let us know how the turnout behaves.

[Desertdweller]

Thanks, James!

Les

[bshs7086]

i have  l/h  and r/h  switches, one routes the power one does not . they look quite different . i spoke to my hobby shop man and his answer was the one that switches is older stock , same part number  a little bit confusing       

[Rockdweller]

To power the frog, connect the wires to the outbound most boss on top of the existing one
circled.

If you try this, please report back and let us know how the turnout behaves.

Which I have done and yes joining the two wires together powers the frog, which changes polarity when the points are changed.
Works much better with the small shunters.

Getting back to the original subject of points being power routing or not, I just recently got a EZ Single Crossover Turnout - Right #44876, which came in a blue edged retail pack and it also is not power routing and remains live in all positions ( I also connected the frogs on it to make them live with the same setup as the new? turnouts.

This doesn't follow the yellow edge advise given and even says along one edge " This turnout is electronically gapped for DCC- friendly operation."

Talk about confusing..Bachmann should have make a much clearer and defined distinction between the old and new types.
As it stands there's no way of telling what one is getting when one orders a turnout if the numbers are the exact same..

[James in FL]

Rock, thanks again for confirming what I assumed.

If the turnouts are out of the blister pack then a quick look at the underside would indicate which turnouts are which. The exposed red wires would tell you they can be converted to whichever way suits you, while no exposed wires would indicate strictly power routing type.
Ordering the turnouts, sight unseen, may pose a problem. A modification to the item number would be helpful here.

The back of the new blister pack has the verbiage and a diagram showing how to power the frog, however the literature enclosed may be confusing by stating the turnouts are power routing.
I do not use DCC.
Why Bachmann would include "not recommended for DCC" on the new turnout packaging is a mystery to me, seeing as the frog is unpowered and all routes are live from the factory.
It's a moot point with me anyway.

It would appear to me that when using these new turnouts in all routes live mode, on DC as a crossover, that they would require insulated joiners between them... no?

As far as the crossovers go...
I don't have any so I am unable to comment on whether or not these have been revised as well. Can anybody comment as to whether there is an old (power routing) version and a new (convertible) version? The version Rock has can be converted, have they always been that way?

This has been a good thread and lots of good information (facts) passed along here.
I've learned something and thanks to all participating.