Help With A First Layout?

[NScaleNewbie]

Hi there, we're (me and my son) building our first N Scale layout and we could use some help. We already have some locomotives and cars from a friend of mine who was switching scales. We've had nothing but 'Thomas' floor layouts until now that he's grown out of Thomas, and gotten into "bigger trains". We got a lot of Bachmann E-Z track with the engines and cars and we tried having a floor layout with them. This worked out pretty well until my daughters (not train fans at all) came and started knocking the trains over.

After that, it was decided that we should have a table layout. The only problem is that we're having trouble making one fit in a small sized space that has what we want. It has to be two tracks (the local CSX line has two tracks and we're loosely basing it on that), I'd like it to be done with E-Z track since we already have a lot, and it needs those bigger curves (19 inch I think) since we got locomotives like the Santa Fe and N&W 4-8-4's who don't like the little curves.

Thanks if anyone has any suggestions or ideas, these newbies could use some help!

[ACY]

If you have a 4-8-4 you'll want 19" radius curves to safely operate your loco, so the minimum space required would be 41 inches to have a bit of space on each edge. If you want to operate larger locos on both mainlines then you will need about 43 inches to do that safely. If that is not an option then do not run your 4-8-4 and other larger locos and go with 11.25 inch radius and you could fit everything within 28 inches or 12.5 inch radius and fit everything within 31 inches safely.

[DoubleDAZ]

Bachmann has a book of track plans specifically for E-Z Track, but I don't know how good it is.  Kalmbach sells a bunch of books too, like "101 Track Plans", "Track Planning For Realistic Operations", etc., as does Model Railroader Magazine and any number of others.  Some books have been around for 40 years or more with updates along the way and there are probably newer books that show more modern techniques and design theory.  If you have an LHS (local hobby shop), that would be a good place to start looking and there is always Amazon, etc.  Libraries also often carry model railroading books.  Oh, and HO-Scale plans are fairly easy to adapt to N-Scale.

If you want some help here, you need to provide the size of space you have to work with and a little more detail of what kind of operations you are looking for.  I'm also building a tabletop layout, on a "real" dining room table.  But, I'm designing my grid benchwork so it will overhang by a foot or so, making my final space 12'x6'.  It will be in 3 sections; one will be a detachable 6x2 staging yard and two will be 10x3 sections that butt up to the back of each other with a dividing diorama of some sort between them.  It will also need to be able to be disassembled a couple of times a year for family dinner parties, so it will be an interesting project for me and I'll have to learn a lot of things along the way to make it happen as planned.

FWIW, the 4-8-4 that comes with the Empire Builder Set runs fine on 11.25" curves.  However, the caboose (with it's body-mounted coupler) doesn't, it pulls the last car off the track after 2-3 curves.  All Bachmann N-Scale locos, including their 2-6-6-2, are rated for 11.25" curves.  The only exception is the Spectrum-series Amtrak Acela.  But, because of the caboose, I'd be concerned using rolling stock, especially longer cars, with body-mounted couplers.  Since I intend to start buying such cars, I'm in the process of converting my design to the larger 19" curves to see what will still fit and what will need to be changed.

BTW, I'm using XTrackCAD to design my layout on the computer and I suggest you might do the same.  It's a little difficult to figure out, but it has demos to show you most things and the help files eventually show you how to do everything once you learn the basics.  It has an E-Z Track parameter for available tracks, so the result should be fairly accurate.

[Albert in N]

Congratulations on starting a new layout and a wonderful hobby!  I used a finished 3" trim board on the edge of my layout to give a 1 1/4" lip above the layout surface.  This prevents a train from crashing to the floor if it derails.  My room corner layout uses two walls with the trim boards on the exposed portion.  Some folks use plexiglass.  Tip, be sure you can reach the track to keep it wiped clean.  N scale does not like dust, lint, loose cat fur, etc.!  Also, black gunk often streaks the wiping cloth when you wipe the rails.  This is residue from train oil, traction tires and other sources.  I usually lightly wipe the rails before running trains. 

[ACY]

FWIW, the 4-8-4 that comes with the Empire Builder Set runs fine on 11.25" curves.  However, the caboose (with it's body-mounted coupler) doesn't, it pulls the last car off the track after 2-3 curves.  All Bachmann N-Scale locos, including their 2-6-6-2, are rated for 11.25" curves.  The only exception is the Spectrum-series Amtrak Acela. 

Yours may run fine, but this does not imply someone else's locomotive will run fine on that radius. It would also look better if you run it on 19" radius.

[James in FL]

Hi NScaleNewbie,

First, if you plan to spend much time on this forum and gleam any useful information, learn to ignore most of what userACY, ABC, or whichever other moniker he (?) uses or has used, posts.
Its copious amounts of misinformation post after post.
It's a shame the moderators have not stepped in to this point.

If you have a 4-8-4 you'll want 19" radius curves to safely operate your loco

How ACY "knows" what you "want" is beyond my intellect.
That said,
The 4-8-4 Northern (Santa Fe) is marketed with 11.25r curves in the Empire Builder set.
Try making your ovals with 11.25r on the inside and 12.5r on the outside. Use some short straight sections on the outer loop portion to prevent contact from overhang on passing trains throughout the curves.

...If you want to operate larger locos on both mainlines then you will need about 43 inches to do that safely. If that is not an option then do not run your 4-8-4 and other larger locos..

Many larger locos will run just fine on the 11.25r curves.
I don't know where he gets off on posting this BS.

I would guess he has little, to no, N Scale experience.

Good Luck

[DoubleDAZ]

Yours may run fine, but this does not imply someone else's locomotive will run fine on that radius. It would also look better if you run it on 19" radius.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes, but all I did is accurately state that my 4-8-4 loco works fine and that Bachmann's locos are rated for 11.25" curves.  There was no inference in that, just a simple statement of fact to go along with your comments.  Then too, my comment was based on his stating that he is already having trouble getting something to fit the space he has.  Just adding my experience for another option.  It's not 19" or nothing you know.

Plus, until he provides some more info on his available space, it doesn't make a lot of sense to offer much of anything yet.  No one will argue that 19" doesn't look better, etc., but not everyone has the space you obviously have and some have to live with 11.25".

I also gave him plenty of reason to seriously consider 19", just not the loco alone.

Plus, I don't want to get into a p*ssing contest in someone's thread.  I'm going to help if I can and that's the end of it.

[James in FL]

Hi DoubleDAZ,

I shouldn't have,
My apologies.

Let's go pick up those empties and return to the flooder.
We have bigger fish to fry.

Easy on the throttle...106 hoppers in the queue ... waiting' on us...

We're here to help when we can... the majority of us at least...
The rest... well... I just have to let that go...

Most everything ever made in (N) works on 19r...
One or two cars maybe the exception.
I don't know, I haven't yet possessed any...yet...that don't.

Good Luck

[ACY]

Hi NScaleNewbie,

First, if you plan to spend much time on this forum and gleam any useful information, learn to ignore most of what userACY, ABC, or whichever other moniker he (?) uses or has used, posts.
Its copious amounts of misinformation post after post.
It's a shame the moderators have not stepped in to this point.

If you have a 4-8-4 you'll want 19" radius curves to safely operate your loco

How ACY "knows" what you "want" is beyond my intellect.
That said,
The 4-8-4 Northern (Santa Fe) is marketed with 11.25r curves in the Empire Builder set.
Try making your ovals with 11.25r on the inside and 12.5r on the outside. Use some short straight sections on the outer loop portion to prevent contact from overhang on passing trains throughout the curves.

...If you want to operate larger locos on both mainlines then you will need about 43 inches to do that safely. If that is not an option then do not run your 4-8-4 and other larger locos..

Many larger locos will run just fine on the 11.25r curves.
I don't know where he gets off on posting this BS.

I would guess he has little, to no, N Scale experience.

Good Luck

You completely misunderstood me sir, I never claimed that he needed 43 inch radius curves, I was saying that the total space required to fit an oval would have to be about 43 inches wide. Here is a diagram that illustrates what I was describing except the circle represents two ovals:

Also, my 4-8-4 Northern will not operate on 11.25" or 12.5" radius curves without derailing somewhat frequently, it runs flawlessly on 19" radius curves and looks great too. Yours may run fine, but that does not guarantee his will.

[ACY]

Sorry if I stepped on your toes, but all I did is accurately state that my 4-8-4 loco works fine and that Bachmann's locos are rated for 11.25" curves.

You did not step on my toes, I just did not want him to think his loco would be guaranteed to run on 11.25" radius. For example I bought a Bachmann HO Overland Limited Set, it came with 18" radius curves, but the 4-8-4 included in the set would constantly derail and required 22" radius for any sort of reliable operation. Running larger locomotives on sharp radius curves is just asking for trouble, it is setting yourself up for failure, ideally if you have flex track you can make 14" radius curves and not use up all the space that 19" radius curves take and reliably run most N scale equipment with some exceptions. My 4-8-4 runs flawlessly on my friends layout which has about 14" radius curves, if only there were a radius in E-Z track between 19" and 12.5" radius.

[DoubleDAZ]

I shouldn't have,
My apologies.

I wasn't talking to you, or anyone in particular for that matter.  I just thought we were getting ahead of ourselves arguing about radii until we know what we have to work with.  He may have to give up a lot of his wishes, go with smaller locos, etc.  No way to really know though until he responds.  It would be nice too if he provided a sketch of what he's trying to put together that won't fit.

Anyway, I also think he should listen to whomever gives him what he wants.  I just know that tryng to live with 19" radii in a small space is pretty futile, especially E-Z Track.  I'm far from an expert, having just gotten back into the hobby after 30+ years, but IMHO you just have to give up too much.  I'm trying to convert my design right now and I'm getting more frustrated by the minute.  Fortunately, I don't have the problem of already having a lot of equipment I want to use, so I can give up specific locos to get the kind of running I want.  For me, running is more important.  I am going to buy a diesel and some rolling stock soon to run on my test layout with 11.25" curves.  However, eventually I am going to forego using E-Z Track altogether because I want to use FlexTrack on the straights so I can have gentle curves.  Modeling is all about compromise and only the modeler knows what's important to him/her.

[DoubleDAZ]

You did not step on my toes..........,if only there were a radius in E-Z track between 19" and 12.5" radius.

Can't argue with that, but I think you are still missing the point that we have no idea what space he has to use, so the discussion to this point is kind of pointless and has probably run him off.  In hindsight, had I known you were going to get all bothered by another point of view, I wouldn't have responded to share my experience to give him some hope that he just might be able to design a nice layout for the space he has. I'd like 19" radii too, but I'm almost convinced that is not going to happen and I may have to settle for smaller locos.  At ant rate, I think he has enough info on the subject of radii, so I'm moving on if he responds.

One good thing though is you gave me the idea to totally switch to flextrack and try something like 14" radii and see if most of my design will fit.  I haven't checked other brands of sectional track yet, but thanks for mentioning that. 

[skipgear]

Both Northerns will run on 11.25 R just fine. ACY, if your's don't then I would look at your trackwork. If you are using Ez Track, then check the gauge on the track. I have seen quite a few pieces of curve track under gauge. I dumped it and went to Kato track after that for my temporary test track.

They will derail on the tighter radius when you get to the limits of their pulling ability but for a small layout with short trains, they will be fine.

Larger would be better of course.

[ACY]

They will derail on the tighter radius when you get to the limits of their pulling ability but for a small layout with short trains, they will be fine.

All of my track is in gauge, it is probably because I was trying to run really long trains, because it was usually fine when I ran it with about 10 cars, but then when I ran really long trains it was derailing. When it was derailing it was doing it randomly, there was no pattern. My N scale layout is 4' by 16', so it is moderately sized, which allows me to run larger trains and it not look as bad. I have a mountain with a bunch of trees on it in the middle that mostly blocks the view of the track on the other side.

[DoubleDAZ]

Both Northerns will run on 11.25 R just fine.........................Larger would be better of course.

Thanks on the confirmation.  I plan on running trains of 5-8 cars on my layout, so you're giving me hope that I won't have to convert to larger radii.  I don't like the conversion I've done so far in XTrakCAD at all.