General Electric Dash 9 Locomotives now arriving

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Bachmann has announced that the new run of General Electric Dash 9 Locomotives is arriving.

here is the link:  https://mail.yahoo.com/d/folders/1/messages/81984

Being in Texas I see the real BNSF and UP -9's and would love to have both BNSF units and a UP unit so I could run two in front and a trailing DPU mid train or in the back.

Not sure what the street price will be, but I would need a go fund me campaign in order to get even one.LOL

None the less if one of you forum members get one, please report details that might differentiate it from the Aristo versions.  Paint, road numbers, details.  I will add them to my database. 

[doug c]

 
Yep!  I saw their email early p.m.  It was great to hear it was finally being rolled out again with possibly a couple upgrades !

Ultimately though after viewing further, I tapped 'reply' and just to 'vent' sent them;

"Too bad for you ya left out,   CANADIAN NATIONAL Railway,    BCRail,  CPRailway,   !!

Good Luck  &Take Care.
Doug C
"G-Gauge may not RULE, But it GROWS on Ya!! "     djc'99


Time tah roll, for now .....



p.s.  wow,   another refurb'd G forum, luckily no loss of pwd, just all side header data restarted .   LoL

[A Trainman]

Bill said...

"here is the link:  https://mail.yahoo.com/d/folders/1/messages/81984"


Bill,
The link takes me to a Yahoo signup page.
Can't see the message from Bachmann.

Glad to see the forum back up and running!!

Adam

[doug c]

This may work for ya, as it is the link to the webpage version of what they sent out to us folks,  on their email'mailing list !

https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Add-Some-BIG-Modern-Power-To-Your-Large-Scale-Railroad-.html?soid=1115574866827&aid=qzOuvnrVz5I

Hope it works for ya .

nite,
Doug C

p.s. I tested the link after posting, and it did work for me but I did use the same 'device'   ;-)

p.p.s.   I tend to stay away from any secondary links with yahoo embedded, since they were hacked a couple times a few yrs back, and fellow (friend) local G-gauge enthusiast had his email addy address book compromised 'cause of that, and the bad actors still try to suck us in by sending questionable emails allegedly from him.      He passed away (rip) a couple yrs after his email acc't was compromised.... so I always tag them 'spam'.   



"G-Gauge may not RULE, But it GROWS on Ya!! "     djc'99

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Thanks Doug, For the alternate link.  I tested the original link and it worked for me as well.  Adam I don't know why it failed to work for you, sorry!  Will try to find a different way to post things like this.

Bill

[Greg Elmassian]

So, looks like (from teardown by someone who has received his)

The socket is the updated pin number (from the Aristo >> Bachman)
The J1 connector is completely backwards compatible to the earliest Aristo, so all PNP stuff should run
The extra lighting is on the second connector (there is no standard for this, but the pins are there)
A plug in board with wires is provided to hardware a decoder
the wheels are apparently the original style shiny chrome plated types
NO information yet if the updated "D cut" wheels and axles are used
NO information yet on actual back to back, wheel contour, etc.
Extra switch provided to turn off porch lights, etc, sort of hidden (need screwdriver to move)
packaging better than original Aristo
handrails installed at factory
u-shaped main metal frame/chassis looks same
NO information on weights yet

[StanAmes]

Greg

I will try to answer your questions.

       The socket is the updated pin number (from the Aristo >> Bachman)

The socket is the same as Bachmann has used on its locomotives with a socket since the K27.  While it was designed with a team of NMRA, Bachmann and Asisto engineers, Aristo never got around to fully implementing it.

    The J1 connector is completely backwards compatible to the earliest Aristo, so all PNP stuff should run

Yes and no.  The origional Aristo socket has pins associated with the smoke unit.   These are not compatible if they are used.  The Bachmann smoke pin is a low current pin same as any other lighting pin.  Also Bachmann requires that the device in the socket provide power to the locomotive on the + and - pins.  Most but not all PNP devices do.  Finially the pins on J2 are used and if you are using a PNP device that does not support J2, you will have to manually connect these.

      The extra lighting is on the second connector (there is no standard for this, but the pins are there)

There is not international approved standard for any large scale socket.  The one used by Bachmann is fully specified and freely available for anyone to use and has been for a long time.  The lighting pins used on the Dash-9 conform to this standard.
A plug in board with wires is provided to hardware a device that plugs into the socket if you are not using a plug and play device.

      the wheels are apparently the original style shiny chrome plated types
     NO information yet if the updated "D cut" wheels and axles are used

There were several types of wheels and axels used on Aristocraft locomotives throughout the years..
Apparently there was a lot of discussion Bachmann had with users on this topic.  For the Dash-9 they chose the wheel with the smaller flange and better profile and not the shintered wheel with the D axle.  The eggliners use the larger and thicker flange wheels.

      NO information yet on actual back to back, wheel contour, etc.

The Wheel contour is the same as the latter Aristo locomotives with the smaller flange. A pre production sample I saw was within the NMRA standards.  I have not tested a production sample.

     Extra switch provided to turn off porch lights, etc, sort of hidden (need screwdriv
er to move)

On the prototype the safety light are always on when the locomotive is on.  If you have something plugged into the socket you have full control of the safety lights.  When powering the locomotive in DC mode the safety lights will be on when the light switch is on.  An extra switch was added next to the socket to allod DC users to turn off all the safety lights but still keep the other lighting functions on.

    packaging better than original Aristo
    handrails installed at factory
    u-shaped main metal frame/chassis looks same

Same but with some added improvements.  For example there is now a hole in the metal frame under the fuel tank.  This allows batteries to be installed in the fuel tank with no need to remove the locomotive's shell.   Simply remove the fuel tank, install the batteries and run the battery wires up to the locomotives main board's screw terminals.

The rear coupler on the Aristo Dash-9 hangs low because the rear footplates used on other locomotives that has the coupler support is not there on the Dash-9.  The rear coupler is properly supported on the Bachmann Dash-9 locomotives.

There are several more small improvements throughout the locomotive including the details on the paint schemes used.

Hopes that helps answer your questions.

Stan

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Thanks Stan,

I definitely like the way the batteries can be installed in them without removing the shell!!  The rear coupler modifications to properly support the couplers is a big plus as well.  I always appreciate your detailed reports on the electronics!


Bill

[Greg Elmassian]

Stan, you missed the point on a few items so I would like to clarify, since I still would like answers.

Short note on the socket/smoke connections:
Small clarification on the smoke connector, was never properly controlled by any decoder as I remember, and you are indeed correct, the original Aristo implementation was to be just jumpering the 2 pins, having the Bachmann socket have a logic level is an improvement, and if it works great!

Most plug and play decoders ignored the smoke pins because of this history.

The J2 pins are free to use, but saying Bachmann meets that standard is a bit tongue in cheek, there is NO standard. By the way, congrats on supplying the plug in board with the wires brought out, although it would be nicer if there were screw terminals, but I understand the cost issue. It's definitely a good move anyway.


On the wheels:
Apparently you do not understand the "D cut" axle "story" at all, but you are not an Aristo expert. Only the prime movers in the very last production runs of the Dash 9 and SD45 had them.

The "D cut" is not about the wheel contour. It is about how the wheel connects to the axle. The the traditional tapered axle and wheel with the conical hole is IMPOSSIBLE to gauge properly. This method was used on all the different wheels, but the 2 axle block used on the FA and eggliner is a different taper than the "Prime Mover" gearboxes used on the 3 axle diesels (and the GP40).

The "D cut" axles allow you to add a shim to correct the normally under gauge situation, and slightly more complex way to increase the gauge.

This inability to re-gauge the wheels has plagued Aristo forever. Perhaps someone can eventually convince Kader to do this, since it WAS produced at one time.

I will be interested to see what the back to back and flange thickness comes out, as this did vary over time, usually under specs, but one loco (Aristo 2-8-0 Consolidation) was overgauge.

In any case, bravo to Bachmann asking Kader to make improvements.

if you have any more info on the other little improvements, I would appreciate it.

Greg

[StanAmes]

Greg


Answers in line beliw

     Short note on the socket/smoke connections:
     Small clarification on the smoke connector, was never properly controlled by any decoder as I remember, and
     you are indeed correct, the original Aristo implementation was to be just jumpering the 2 pins, having the
     Bachmann socket have a logic level is an improvement, and if it works great!

     Most plug and play decoders ignored the smoke pins because of this history.

For Aristo yes, for Bachmann no  All PNP decosers built to run in Bachmann locomotives have always incorporated the smoke pin.  I believe the K27 came out is 2007  Beginning with the K27 up to now with the Dash 9 the smoke pin has always been a low current function output just like any other function output.  The way it work is that the function output controls a power transistor which provides power to the actual smoke unit.

    The J2 pins are free to use, but saying Bachmann meets that standard is a bit tongue in cheek, there is NO
    standard. By the way, congrats on supplying the plug in board with the wires brought out, although it would
    be nicer if there were screw terminals, but I understand the cost issue. It's definitely a good move anyway.

 Note because Aristo randamly put power on some of the pins on J2, PNP decoders designed for Bachmann locomotives should not be used on Aristo locomotives unless care is taken to isolate the J2 pins on Aristo locomotives before you plug the device in.

The J2 pins are NOT free to use.  Each of the 11 pins on J2 is will defined (well it is true that the 2 trainbus pins on J2 have not been total defined and remain unused). It is an open standard. Up to now there has always been coordination with the manufacturers on how to use these pins.  While the K27 did not have the plug in board with wires, all Bachmann locomotives that incorporate the socket since then have had this part.

   On the wheels:
   Apparently you do not understand the "D cut" axle "story" at all, but you are not an Aristo expert. Only the   
   prime movers in the very last production runs of the Dash 9 and SD45 had them.

Oh I understand this issue completely.  I am a fan of D axels, especially for Steam.  There are two critical standards for wheels, Back to Back and Check Guage.  Unfortunately many large scale models have a flange thigkness that is greater then allowed by the standard.  The result is that a compromise must be made with thick flanges to get them as close as possible while being off in both Check Gauge and Back to Back.  Usig a D axle with a good wheel provile is the easiest way to achiece conformance to wheel standards.  Alas the Aristo wheels that used the D axle had issues to a lot of users.

I do know that a lot of discussion went into the wheel selection for the Dash-9.  None of the Aristo wheels met all the desires so they talked to people and selected the wheel they felt was best.  I think it was a good choice given the constraints.

Stan

[Greg Elmassian]

In 99% of aristo locos j2 socket is not connected, but there were a few, so, yes, check. Almost all decoders that had J2 pins had nothing connected to them... the exception was qsi which had the speaker connected. I do not believe your incarnation of the socket follows that standard.

Also your change to the smoke connections, while a better idea, does not follow the Aristo standard which predates Bachmann by many years...

The J2 pins are free to use as a manufacturer wants... the specific layout by Bachmann does not establish a standard in my opinion... but believe what you want... It's not necessarily a Bachmann standard unless you can show some printed standard that is also implemented consistently for all the Bachmann locos... I doubt that is true... (but feel free to point out proof)  but I know you are the "father" of the Bachmann

 socket, so I understand why you are doggedly pursuing this... does not matter, TRUST NO SOCKET is what people have learned...

By the way, the QSI Titan decoders used J2, which included speaker, chuff trigger, class lights, cab light and firebox lights.

So the Dash 9 does have the speaker pins in place, but J2 pin 10 is firebox on steamers, and front number boards on the dash 9... small differences, but not a standard... and not really published except in each loco manual.

I don't know where you got your information on the D cut axles on Aristo, there were very few made, and again you are not an Aristo expert (I don't need a lesson on wheels and flanges thank you very little). I think your feedback on the Aristo D cut wheels was based on the sintered metal they were made from, which had a very poor finish from the factory... but a few minutes cleaning the muck off the tread made them 100% better, but again, very few people know this. Same thing happened with the sintered steel wheels on the 1:29 AML rolling stock.


So, you have not explicitly stated that the wheels are on the original style tapered axles, but it seems so... too bad.. maybe Bachmann will re-think when/if they make the Aristo steamers... THOSE wheels have a terrible contour, just terrible...


I am still waiting on how the back to back and flange thickness came out... hopefully it is better than we got with Aristo....

[StanAmes]

Greg

I really do not know how to reply to your message.

In the 2006-2007 timeframe Aristocraft, Bachmann, QSI, ESU, Digitrax and the NMRA DCC working group under topic 0707092 worked to develop a standard for Large scale locootives. 

Both Louis Polk of Aristo and Lee Riley of Bachmann signed off on the eventual standard proposal and indicated plans to incorporate the updated socket standard in all future production of locomotives that used the socket.  Alas Louis never followed through with his implementation so no formal NMRA standard was submitted or approved.

There was one mistake on the chuff pin in the origional standard proposal.  While everyone thought it would work with all sound decoders in the mrket at that time, in reality it only worked with ESU. Because of this the specification for the chuff pin was changed to ground and all locomotives Bachmann has produced with the socket since the K-27 have incorporated that revision.  To my knowledge that is the only revision to the socket ever made.

There has been no change to this socket concept since 2008.  You can trust that the socket in Bachmann Locomotives exactely follows this proposed standard.

Pins J2-1 and J2-3 are the speaker pins.  The choise of the use of these pins was proposed by Louis and adapted by the committee.

J2-6 through J2-10 are function outputs.  There is no specified specification for which pin is used to control which specific locomotive function.   Various locomotives have had different features and as such the 5 function outputs control different locomotive features in various locomotives.  This in no different then any other socket specification.

The Dash-9 uses all five of these function pins. 
J2-10   Front Number Boards
J2-9   Cab Light
J2-8   Safety Lights
J2-7   Right Ditch Light
J2-6   Left Ditch Light

Together with the front headlight, rear headlight, and smoke function on J1 this means that the Dash-9 has eight seperaterly controllable function available.

Hope that helps clarify this issue.

Stan

[John G]

I am installing a decoder in the large scale Dash 9 using the "Jumper PC Board With Wires".  Do I need to use resistors on the lighting circuits or are they still present in the remaining Bachmann boards, even though I have removed the "DC Jumper PC Board"?  Thanks.

[StanAmes]

No extra resistors are needed.  All the required electronics are in the Dash-9

Simply connect the wires from the dummy board with wires to the decoder of your choice.

Please ensure that in addition to the track and motor wires that you connect the + and ground wires included on the dummy board with wires, to the + and ground connections on your desired decoder.  These are required to power the electronics within the Dash-9

Stan

[John G]

Thank you.  The information in your previous post about the history and mechanics of the socket was also very helpful.

John