Derailing Problem

[chenashea]

Hello to all, train rookie is back and I need some assistance. 

2 of my 14 grandchildren just flew in from Italy for the holidays and their father is setting up a foreign studies program for the University of Okla. Last year we went the Thomas train set on the living room floor before and after the Christmas tree set up.
This year I decided to use my basement study and a work room next to it.  One room has a 96"x 75" board connected to a 30" x 84" at the far wall then I have tunneled to the next room at the far wall and connect to a 120" by 84" board.  I do have a grade of 33&1/2" up to 36" over 48".

I have used all Bachmann track and have nailed it down to close all the rail connection gaps tight.  All  track is the 12" strait and the regular 11!/2" curves except for a very short 3" and 4" (only two pieces) sections to help align after a curve.

Most of the track runs at the near periphery of the noted boards.

I use the MTC G power pack and have no problems running the 2 locomotives simultaneously.

Problem:  The two locomotives are the Bachmann ?O-4 222 steam driven type  or the Denver Rio Grand Western #177 and the other is wood fired replica #14 same line.  I can't read a model number but they are Big Haulers.

The lead front truck? O-4 keeps derailing usually after a gentle curve.  I note that there is some type of white grease to help it swivel and lubricate. It seems if the rear of the locmotive is heavier and it titer totters this front truck up then off the track.  Any ssuggested remidies???

I apologize for my lack of proper terminology but this is the best I can do.
Thank You..rocky doc aka chenaschea

[Loco Bill Canelos]

From you description it is very hard to diagnose your problem.   If the locomotives derail at the same spot every time I would suspect the problem is with the track.

Since you nailed down the track, it is possible that you nailed it down too hard. Sometimes when nailed too hard the track will bend enough to cause derailments.

If the derailments happen at the start of a grade, your transition from the level to the grade may be too sharp, and this could be the cause.

It would be best if your grades are limited to no more than 4% ( a rise of 4 inches in 100 inches of track length).   

It is also important to make sure your track is level from side to side.  If there are twists in the track this will definitely cause problems with the Big Hauler 4-6-0.   You say it happens on a curve,  if the track is not level from side to side along the entire curve you will have derailments with the 4-6-0

If it is not the track, check the front truck to be sure the tiny wires that feed power from the truck to the motor are not interfereing with the movement of the truck.  Turn the locomotive over and check the swing of the truck from side to side to make sure it swings freely.    The sharper your curves the more important this is. 

Hopefully some of this information will help. 

When I first got started I did not lay the track as well as I should have, and I had many derailments.  After redoing my track very carefully derailments were mostly eliminated. 

[altterrain]

If your loco is the 4-6-0 (front wheels- middle driver wheels-back wheels) this is a common problem. Bill suggested some good things to check except i would keep the grade to 3% at a maximum with this loco.
Bad track work is usually the main culprit. Bachmann track being hollow can easily be bent out of shape. Some have fixed the pilot truck problems by adding weights or a stiffer spring - http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html#derailments

-Brian

[Jon D. Miller]

You mention derailing after a gentle curve.

Bill mentions the track being level from side to side. 



Place a level at right angles to the track as depicted in the above picture. The bubble should be centered.  If the bubble is not centered then the track will have to be adjusted so there is no variation in cross-level.  That's what side to side  level is known as.  If anything, the outside rail of a curve could be just slightly higher than the inside rail.  Still it's best to have the track perfectly level, side to side.

You also might want to check the front wheels on the pilot truck.  The wheels have stubs that slide into the plastic tube (axle).  These wheels should be tight against the axle tube.  I don't have a picture of this to illustrate.  If you have a way to measure the back to back gauge of the front pilot wheels they should be 1.575 inches.  The wheels can be adjusted by moving the wheels in or out just slightly to achieve the 1.575" back to back gauge.  Once set they can be held in place with a very small amount of CA.

[chenashea]

Loco Bill Canelos, Altterrain, Jon D. Miller:
Thank you all for your suggestions and replies.  My first problem was the front truck of the 4-6-o would lift off as it came up the grade then over a hump or a sudden downward slope while the rear heavier portion was still inclined up wards. I smooth out  and removed the humps. Front truck lifoff resolved.
Second problem was corrected by using the level perpindicular to the tracks and leveled the tracks side to side, especially coming out of a curve.  Derailing solved, and thank you again.

Now to trouble the "informed" once more.  3 additional questions:
1.  I am running 2 BigHauler locomotives of 4-6-0.  I start them at opposite distances but the one loco runs faster and always catches up after several runs and pushes the caboose off track.  Is there any to control or equalize the speed?
2.   Is there any way to turn off a locomotive while it is sitting on a siding while the other loco is operating?
3.   From my old HO days of 40 years ago, I could zone out portions of the track such as sidings or turn outs.  Can that be done with this scale and if so how do you insulate out at the switches or a section of track ?  Or to make things simpler, should I look into DCC and how hard is it to convert these "older" locomotives and what process do you recommend if so?

Thank You again for your patience and tolerance.  The grandsons and I are still overjoyed with these models and couldn't be happier, but as you can surmize, there is always room for improvement.

RockyDoc aka chenaschea

[altterrain]

1.  I am running 2 BigHauler locomotives of 4-6-0.  I start them at opposite distances but the one loco runs faster and always catches up after several runs and pushes the caboose off track.  Is there any to control or equalize the speed?

If you have different versions of the big hauler, the gearing could be different accounting for the speed difference. You could try adding a few more cars (or weight in the cars) to slow down the faster one.

2.   Is there any way to turn off a locomotive while it is sitting on a siding while the other loco is operating?

You would have to install your own switch. Many other locos have this feature built in.

3.   From my old HO days of 40 years ago, I could zone out portions of the track such as sidings or turn outs.  Can that be done with this scale and if so how do you insulate out at the switches or a section of track?

Yes, I have this very thing on my layout. I have a long passing siding where I can park one train and run the other. One rail on each siding (the same side) is isolated with an insulating rail clamp (Hillmann or Split Jaw). The power to that rail is run through a single pole double throw center off switch (SPDT C/O). That way I can supply power to either or neither isolated rail. If you are using Bachmann track you may be out of luck, as I don't think they make insulating joiners and such.

Or to make things simpler, should I look into DCC and how hard is it to convert these "older" locomotives and what process do you recommend if so?

I have not seen DCC work well consistently in large scale, particularly outdoors. Battery/RC conversion is a much better option in my opinion.

-Brian

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Iyou have grades it is almost impossible to equalize both engines even if they are equally geared.   As a locomotive slows going up the grade it is often easy for the second one to catch up.  And as Brian says if the gearing is different it is even worse.   My son would run two trains by putting the fastest one first and the slower one directly behind, that way the faster train would take longer to catch up.

The simplest way I know is to put a gap in one of the rails at the begining of a siding, run a wire from one side of the gap to a simple on and off switch then to the other side of the gap.  You could then pull a train into the siding, turn the switch to the off position and it will be isolated.  If the siding is double endedyou will need the gap at both entrances of the siding, but just the one switch.

The block systen you used on the HO works well in G Scale.  To make gaps in the Bachmann Track you would have to remove the rail joiners.  Aristo Craft makes some cheap plastic rail joiners that might fit on the ends of the bachmann track.  Another way is to simply cut a gap int the center of one of the rails, and use a wooden toothpick and superglue to keep the gap open.  I can't remember who I saw doing that but it did work.   

As for DCC I used it in HO years ago and spent more time fiddling around with it I gave up.  The newer systems are more reliable and some swear by it.  I still use the old block system and it allows friends with track powered locos or battery power locos to use the same track as long as the battery loco is fully isolated from the track.   Bachmann DCC which I saw on their demonstration layouts seemed to work well, but it was On30.

See if you can find the book Wiring your Model Railroad by Kalmbach, it is a great guide for the block system of wiring.

Sorry I coul not be of more help!

[Barry BBT]

This has been a persistant problem.  I saw it 15 years ago and came up with part of the solution.

The crescent shape the post on the pilot truck frame has to run in does cause the the post to catch, when it catches the truck leans and eventually derails.

My first improvement was to eliminate the cresent by creating an arm from the bottom of the chassis to the top of a shortened post on the pilot truck. Also added weight to the front axle of the truck.

Then Bachmann introduced the Tenth Anniversary Big Hauler.  In the design process, creating an independent front drive axle, it dawned on me (I'm real quick) to provide a pilot truck with the same flexibility.  So I did, only took 15 years, but I said I was quick.

I have kits for these goodies.

Barry - BBT 

[rperego]

Regards the front truck, don't tighten the center screw too tight of it will restrict the truck from moving sideways.   

I'm running Big Haulers indoors on DCC for very little money.  I use an NCE $16 decoder, not meant for G guage but I can pull 6 cars and am still well within the limits of the decoder, and the relatively inexpensive NCE Powercab.  I just upgraded to the 3 AMP unit because of lights I added, but the 2 AMP Powercab will run 3 Bachmann locos at the same time, including Tsunami sound boards.    I can adjust the speeds so multiple trains can run for a fair amount of time before having to make any speed adjustments. 

To avoid a huge discussion, what I'm doing is admittedly on the edge - if a loco hits something you could blow a decoder.   My track is flat and I need to watch the current draw on curves.  However, it was a cheap way to try DCC and it convinced me when I go outside it will be either battery of live steam.