Hello,

I sent this query to the Bachmann parts dept a few weeks ago.  They're not doing anything about it, so I thought I'd try here.

I have 2 American Standard 4-4-0 HO locos and tenders (#119 and Jupiter).  I'd like to convert them to DCC and am just getting started compiling a parts list.

On the Bachmann parts website they list two tenders for the DCC versions:

COMPLETE TENDER (HO SCALE 4-4-0 DCC-SV) $76.70
C.P. #60 (JUPITER)
Model: 00D01-52702

COMPLETE TENDER (HO SCALE 4-4-0 DCC-SV) $76.70
UNION PACIFIC #119
Model: 00D01-52701

The standard trains have the motor in the tender, not the loco. The motor is connected to the loco with a plastic drive shaft.  The loco only has gearing to drive the wheels.  I have a few questions about this design related to the tenders Bachmann is selling and DCC conversion of these trains:

1. Do the tenders listed above contain all of the parts needed for DCC conversion?  i.e., motor, decoder, and drive shaft?

2. Could they just be connected to the standard locos with the existing drive shafts to complete the DCC conversion?

3. In the DCC-ready models, the motor and decoder are in the loco, not the tender.  To convert the standards, do I have to do more than just add the tenders listed above?  In other words, would I have to completely gut the locos, and add the motor and DCC decoder?

4. If the standard locos have to be completely rebuilt with motors and DCC decoders, what do the DCC tenders really do?  Are they just empty tenders without the motors and drive shafts, so that the DCC-equipped locos just pull them as attached cars?

Thanks for your help and time,

Quote from: Warflight on March 26, 2019, 12:08:03 PM
...
Hell, I have a Pegasus, that I installed DCC and sound in (using a Digitrax 8-bit N scale sound decoder) that has been running like a champ since I bought it two years ago.
...
I have a friend named "Mo" who recently put DCC into a DeWitt Clinton (simply because everyone told him he couldn't) Next step is DCC and sound (N scale decoders can be easily hidden on the tender, if you shave some detail down, and use some painted medical tape as a "tarp")

Hi Warflight,

I'm going to be taking a stab at adding decoders to my old HO 4-4-0 tender-driven engines.  Once I get the hang of working with decoders (assuming I can!), I'd like to do the same thing to my own Bachmann classics: Dewitt Clinton, John Bull, Lafayette.

I can already see why adding some weight to the classics is a must.  The things seem to fall off the tracks if I breathe on them the wrong way.

Does your friend Mo have a forum posting or some other online description of how he/she added the decoder to the Clinton?  Have you posted any instructions for how you added the decoder to your Pegasus?  

Thanks for your time and keep up the good work, these photos are great eye candy and fantastic inspirations that it can be done, despite the detractors of the classics.

Quote from: Terry Toenges on June 11, 2019, 07:43:45 PM
If you want to do it yourself, here are threads that talk about it.
https://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_epq=install+decoder+bachmann+4-4-0&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=

Quote from: rich1998 on June 11, 2019, 11:10:32 PM
...You better make all four wheels on the tenders pickup. Today a DZ126 decoder would be a better choice. Good for one amp and quite small.
About six years ago a put the little older DZ125 in a 44 ton two motor 44 ton. Both decoders quite small. Google DZ126. I thinks about twenty dollars.
Hminky here has experience with these locos and has done quite well with them and I have.
...http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/bachmann_4-4-0/sound/
Shapeways sells different parts for the locos. Google Shapeways Bachmann parts.

Hi Terry and Rich,

Thanks for all the great advice and links.  I'll explore all of it this eve, definitely, especially the "twenty dollars" DZ126.   Did I mention the huge money issue on this project?  It's driving everything these days.

BTW Rich, what's the "44 ton two motor" loco?  Is that an HO model?

Have a good one,

Quote from: WoundedBear on June 11, 2019, 07:23:34 PM
I would toss the old tender drive models and buy the new DCC Sound set.
https://www.micromark.com/Bachmann-Transcontinental-w-Digital-Sound-Limited-Edition-Train-Set-HO-Scale
Sid

Hi Sid,

Yes, I ran across the micromark set in my wanderings.  It's definitely an excellent set and the combined price is a little lower than Bachmann's total for the two separate locos.  But it's still $529.95, which is way beyond my budget these days.  In fact the money issue is the main reason I'm looking into decoders.

Also, I'd be loathe to just toss the old models because even those weren't cheap back when I had a day job.  If I can ever scrounge the bucks somehow, part of plan B is to try to unload them at the local hobby shop and get at least some of the money back.

In addition to the 4-4-0's, I have a few of those "classic" Bachmann sets such as the DeWitt Clinton and John Bull.  At first uninformed glance, adding decoders to those things looks just plain impossible.  Last time I took a serious look at them, they were both tender-driven too.  In fact the tender wheels are the powered ones; the front wheels are just free spinning without a drive shaft or gearing of some kind.  I've taken that to mean that any drive wheel mechanics are also in the tenders, so there's even less room any decoder add-ons.  Maybe in the locos, or even some kind of customized car behind the tender?

But one thing at a time, first the 4-4-0's.  Between now and whenever (if ever) I can afford the new DCC sets I have to give decoders a try so I can afford to eat.

Thanks for that link to the micromark set, now I won't have to go searching again when I forget where it is, iow later today.  Wounded Bear website is going in the archives too, will explore when I get time this eve.  From what I've seen already it's a good website design function-wise.  Efficient, gets the job done, no damn flash/media popups on every mouseover. 

Have a good one,

Hello Everyone,

I'm toying with the idea of converting an old HO layout to DCC.  Two of the steam locos are old 4-4-0 Union Pacific #119 and Central Pacific #60 (Jupiter).  The Bachmann SKU for the Jupiter is 51124.  I don't have the SKU for the #119.

I was wondering if there's even a DCC decoder available that could be installed in these locos.  I did a search here on Bachmann and didn't find anything I recognized.  

Please bear with me on this one.  I haven't looked into DCC for these locos since ~2005 so I'm essentially very new at this.  

If more info about my layout and locos needs to be posted, please let me know.

Thanks for your time,

Quote from: jward on July 24, 2012, 01:10:35 AM
in my opinion, masonite is just too flimsy for its use as subroadbed. masonite bends and can warp over time. it is good for control panels and backdrops, but not much else.

instead, rather than buy a whole sheet of plywood but only use a small piece of it, why not use pieces of 1x4 white pine. a 6 foot length is only a couple of bucks, and should privide all the wood needed for your corner. best of all, you can leave this section unsupported if the longest piece is under 3 feet long.

Well, actually, a 4' X 8' sheet of plywood would have only slightly more area than I need to enlarge the table the way I want to.  I should have provided the dimensions of the extensions, rather than just the table - sorry about that.

I plan to lengthen each end of the table's "L" by 3 ft.  Since the table is 5 ft wide on each leg of the "L". that means I need two table-top sections of 3' X 5' each.  The total area required for the two sections would be 30 sq. ft., only 2 sq. ft. less than a 4' X 8' sheet of plywood.  Obviously I'd have to do some piecing with a 4' X 8' sheet of whatever because of the 5 ft width, but that's certainly not a show-stopper.

That's why the issue of getting a 4' X 8' sheet of plywood wouldn't be one of waste, just cost vs. what I have on hand.

However, you've given me ideas with the suggestion to just piece together the extensions with pine boards.  I'll have to go back over my inventory to see if I can do it that way.  I just wasn't thinking along the lines of board platforms.

Thanks for the advice,
Alan Mintaka

Hey Everyone,

I'm considering adding on to an existing table that's basically two ping-pong tables (5' X 9' each) joined at the corners of an "L" by a 5' X 5' sheet of 1/2" plywood.

I have a lot of large sheets of 1/8" masonite here, about 3' X 4' each. 

At the moment I have no extra plywood, but I do have a lot of framing lumber: 2' X 4' for the frame, 4' X 4' for legs (overkill, but they look really nice).

Given all that, I was wondering about enlarging the table with sections that have masonite only as the top - i.e., no plywood underneath.  With the framing lumber I can certainly make it sturdy enough.  I could also double-layer the 1/8" sheets if necessary to minimize sagging between the joists. 

What I don't know about is how masonite works as the only tabletop material over the long haul, and how it works for train tables in particular.

I will certainly seal it somehow - I have a lot of stuff for doing that as well, from poly to solid wood stain (the latter might only work on the unfinished side of the masonite though).  The layout is in a basement with a tabletop dehumidifier that works OK but isn't perfect on really humid days.

What will it support?  Not much in terms of weight, unless I happen to fall onto the table while working on it.  The landscaping will be done with layers of solid "Pink Panther" or similar foam.  The trains and track (HO gauge) will probably be the heaviest items on it.

What do you think?  I is masonite-only worth using just to save some bucks on plywood, or should I just spring for the ply in order to save myself later problems with the masonite?

Thanks for your time,
Alan Mintaka

Hi,
It's been a while...

Do you still have the wiring guide by any chance?

Thanks,

Alan Mintaka

Update: First two rails are in place, joined by driving 3-1/2" #10 wood screws down through edge of top rail, countersunk about an inch.  The countersinking drives the screw at least 1" into the bottom rail.

The rails are joined horizontally at one of the table's 90 deg corners.  They were held in place with large C-Clamps and one small corner clamp used to line up miter joints.  These ends weren't mitered though - just flat-butted.  2" #10 wood screws were driven into the corner.

The top screws were positioned every 12" on the rails.  In length the rails are 6' and 8'.  The 8' one will actually be side-spliced with another rail, making the total length of that rail about 13-14'.  It's a pretty fat table, L-shaped.  The 13' rail is one side of the L.

It feels pretty solid.  Time will tell if there's any visible warping with just those top-driven and corner screws for support.  Hopefully the 5/4" lumber will stand up to time better than 3/4" would.

If there's any sign of bowing, I can just add those metal splicing plates, or maybe even short cleats (below the level of the foam landscaping) driven up through the bottom of the table. 

So far I haven't used any yellow glue.  I thought if the assembly felt wobbly or loose somehow, I might unscrew it, add the glue, and screw it back into place.  I can always do that later if needed.

I'm trying to do this table with screws everywhere in the event that I ever need to disassemble and move it.  That's why I'm going to hold the glue in reserve. 

I'll add mushroom or flat pegs to fill the holes when I'm done.

This whole thing is being done on a wicked tight budget, which is why I have to work with as much stuff at hand as possible.  By the time I finished buying the lumber and a long 1/8" drill bit for the vertical screws, I had "change left from my dollar", but that was about it.  Those doweling jigs and biscuit cutters look tempting, but then so does food for the rest of the month!

I couldn't find any examples of wood being joined edge-to-edge this way anywhere on the internet.  Evidently this isn't the best way to do it.  The right way is undoubtedly done with dowels or biscuits per the suggestions here.  I'll probably find out about the reasons as I go along.

But right now, it's working!   

Cell phone pics to come later.  I'll attach them to this thread as an update.

Have a good one,

Quote from: CG04 on February 11, 2010, 09:46:42 AM
Big Al,
By no means am I a master carpenter.  I cannot remember ever getting a perfectly straight piece of lumber.  Seems we always have to figure a way to make it work.  You will find the way that works best for you.  I brought up the bisquits because I saw it on the New Yankee Workshop years ago and decided I just couldn't live without it.  I have used it ever since.  Good luck on your project.
Clif

Ah, to have Norm Abramson's equipment.  Laser-guided rotary saws and lathes, every type of clamp that was ever invented, dado cutters, dowel jigs, biscuit cutters....

I could actually do some of this stuff with his tools. 

I live in southern NH and see Norm Abramson on occasion in places like Staples, Home Depot, etc.   He wouldn't know me from jack of course, and I never bother him.  Mostly I'm interested to see what he could possibly be buying at Home Depot.  It's always small stuff.  With his PBS expense account, he probably buys the "real" stuff from distributers.

Now that I've heard all the ideas on this forum, I will be practicing with biscuits and dowels for the smaller things in this layout.  I have tons of scrap lumber.  Joining boards this way will give me wider flat pieces I don't have.  Nice!

Have a good one,

Good ideas, all.  I have an update that might be relevant.  This evening I attached two of the rails edge to edge using large C-clamps, just to see how things lined up - or how they didn't in this case.

First unpleasant surprise: the rails to be joined don't have the same thickness.  The lumber is all supposed to be 5/4", but the rails I'm going to add on top are about 1/16" thinner than the bottom rails.  Only one side of the rails can be flush.  So far I'm opting for the outside of the rails because it looks better; but then there's a 1/16" shelf on the inside of the rails.  If I join them using flat splice plates, I'll have to shim the tops of the plates with washers or other flat pieces of metal.  The alternative is to flush the rails on the inside.  Then I'll have no problems with flat splice plates.  Unfortunately the outside of the rails will then look pretty crappy.

Second unpleasant surprise: the top rails are warped and/or bowed just enough to make joining them flush a royal pain in the petard.  When I looked at them in the lumber yard they didn't look bowed too badly by eye.  I guess I just plain missed it.

The boards can be worked and bent into position - I discovered this using the C-clamps.  However getting an accurate fit with dowels or biscuits would be next to impossible for me. 

I'll have to attach them after they've been clamped together and forced to be flush.  I'm either going to drill down through the boards on edge and use really long wood screws, or shim the tops of the splice plates and attach the plates to the backs of the rails.

Oh yeah, I'll still be able to use yellow glue because I can work the boards into position while the glue is still wet.  But I'll have to screw or splice them after that because I doubt the glue alone would do the job with these boards. 

I'll screw the corners together in the usual way - across the grain for one board, along the grain for the other.

Plus this method is doable for me.  After looking at some of the online articles about dowel and biscuit joints I concluded that I don't have the right equipment and/or expertise to join the rails that way.  Also I have to keep the cost down as much as possible.  The screws I already have: #8, 3-1/2".  I can countersink them to get them into the bottom board by at least an inch.  Flush or mushroom caps can be used to fill the holes later. 

The only thing I'd have to buy doing everything this way is a longer 1/8" bit for the pilot hole.  That much I can afford at this point.

Thanks once again to all for the neat ideas.

Have a good one,

Quote from: ryeguyisme on February 08, 2010, 11:23:23 AM
speaking of combines, they were often used on branch-lines along with freight cars in consist, in this case they often used it as the caboose rather than tacking on a caboose altogether

I have a few of those for my HO "Wild West" layout.  Like cabooses, they have a cupola near one end of the car.  That might make it a little odd looking for a station, but then again...  why not?

This is a great thread and has given me station ideas for that "Wild West" layout.  I never thought of taking the trucks off one of these old 34' - 40' cars to use it as a station. 

Have a good one,
Big Al Mintaka

Quote from: rustycoupler on February 09, 2010, 11:46:50 PM
Just sit the extra boards on top of the other with the dowell pins already installed and trace the outline of the dowells on the new boards and drill out , glue and you are done.

The trick would be to get the holes vertical, or at least close enough so that the top rails aren't visibly bowed anywhere.  I don't have a drill press, otherwise I'd jump on this dowel idea. 

Still, if the dowels were short enough, small errors off the vertical wouldn't be that important.  What length of dowels are we talking about for a job like this?  Would 1" into each board be enough for a 1/4" dowel, or maybe shallower holes with thicker dowels? 

Thanks,

Quote from: ddellacca on February 09, 2010, 11:11:19 PM
Your hardware store and/or lumber yard will have a large choice
of steel brackets designed for just what you are trying to do.
The ones I'm thinking of will be likely 1/2 inch wide by 2-1/2 to
4 inches long , usually with 4 holes pre-drilled and counter-sunk,
sometimes only 2 holes.
Hope this helps,
Dick

Yes, that sounds somewhat like the splicing plates I have.  I think the difference is that the ones I have were really designed for nails, not screws.  The small holes correspond to #6 wood screws and aren't countersunk.  Still, with #6 panhead screws they won't look bad at all per se.  I'm wondering about the strength of these plates, if, say, someone leans on the top rail.  Would that be enough leverage to bend the plates?  I can find out about this through experimentation.  I'll check the hardware store again, though, to see if there's something with thicker gauge and larger holes.

Thanks,

Quote from: jward on February 09, 2010, 08:10:42 PM
one other method that might work better would be to use dowell rods to fasten the boards together. you'd have to be pretty accurate in how you drilled your holes, but 1/4" dowells inseterd into the top of the existing railing, and the bottom of the added raiing should hold things together pretty solidly. plus it is alot cheaper than using cleats and screws.

That's an interesting idea.  I hadn't thought about dowels or some other kind of mounting pins.  That way there aren't any holes drilled all the way through either board.

Accuracy would indeed be the problem for me there.  "I forgot to mention" in my first post that I stink at carpentry.  That's not self-effacing lip service, either.  I really do stink.  That's why I've been bulling my way through building this table without doing anything fancy - just wood screws to attach everything after it's been clamped in place.

I'm guessing the dowels are close to being the best way technically, but something that I could easily turn into disaster!

Thanks for that idea though - maybe as I get more practice with woodworking I can graduate to that kind of method.

Have a good one,