MTH to get BLI and Lionel tooling

[Atlantic Central]

Again,

To clarify MY position:

I do NOT take exception to one word of the reposted comments from Andy Edleman of MTH - on the points he makes I understand and agree.

I also understand the ownership of the tooling, this is not the first time something like this has happened in this industry.

But Andy failed to address my complaint about his company and their products.

I will repeat MY personal objection to MTH and their "view" on marketing in this hobby. Their locomotives DO NOT RUN CORRECTLY ON THE NMRA STANDARD 12 VOLTS DC.

This alone will keep my money going elsewhere. MTH fails to realize that DCC useage is only about 30% of the market and seems to have leveled off. This has driven EVERY other manufacturer to offer more DC friendly models in one way or another.

Bachmann gives modelers the plugs to allow simple removal of the decoder, and the street prices of the DCC versions are only a few dollars (literally) more than their non DCC versions a few years ago.

Atlas, Athearn, Intermountain, Walthers/Proto, and Boswer/Stewart all offer both DCC and DC versions.

Broadway Limited/PCM has introduced the Blue Line to appeal to DC modelers and still promote their commitment to sound. And, has offered a number of DC only versions in their "Stealth" line.

I wish MTH the best of luck building products for only 30% of the market - no one else has been able to hold to that idea and make money.

Signed - Still using DC and not interested in onboard sound

Sheldon

[Yampa Bob]

Do you think DCC has reached a saturation point, at least with "committed" modelers? 

I like having choices, and refuse to pay for something I don't need or want.  That's about all I can add to this topic.

[Pacific Northern]

Do you think DCC has reached a saturation point, at least with "committed" modelers? 

I like having choices, and refuse to pay for something I don't need or want.  That's about all I can add to this topic.

I would imagine that the new model railroaders would tend to go the DCC systems from the start.  Being informed that you can run a number of engines individually at the same time without special wiring would certainly be reason enough..

Sound,  I think is a personal preference  While I  have a number of steam and diesel engines with sound I do at times turn off the sound. Sometimes it just gets too noisy.

[Atlantic Central]

Bob,

Just going by the modelers I know, the layouts I have visited in the last few years, and conversations with shop keepers I know, DCC conversion by established modelers seems to have leveled off.

I agree with Pacfic Northern that many if not most all new people will go directly for DCC.

And that will result in DCC becoming the primary system, IF, and only if, nothing better comes along to displace it. Remember cassette tapes, which replaced 8 track which replaced vinyl records?

I still have 1500 vinyl records, they sound better then any tape and better than most compact discs. Newer is not always better.

Established modelers, with DC control systems that work well for their needs, who have not already embraced DCC, are not likely to unless something prompts them, like having to rebuild after a move, etc.

The cost and complexity of DCC will continue to stop some, simple lack of need will stop others from converting. Possible advancements in DC such as plug and play computerized block control, or simple systems like my walk around block control system, could easily find their own niche groups or even grab large market shares in the future.

Layout based sound, now available for DCC, is very viable for DC systems and would change the landscape for the sound crowd quite a bit.

My system will soon be installed on its first layout, which will be on our NMRA Regional tours and other open houses this fall. We will see how well it works and how other modelers respond.

Sheldon

[Yampa Bob]

Companies must be selling complete sets by the thousands or they would quit making them available.  Roundhouse recently released sets with vintage loco, Overland cars, EZ Track and controller. I did my share  of promoting the hobby by buying 3 sets. They are DC sets, but the loco is DCC ready so it does give me choices.

Yesterday, a new modeler reported buying a complete Zephyr controller for only $15 at a yard sale.   

[CMRR401]

rather late for this topic since i've had this to MTH snice they opened, same as B&Ofan, i hate them with a passion. they think they know what there doing but they don't. there trying to take the HO scale market as they tryed with the G scale and have done with O scale. one thing and one thing only i have to say about them and that is that they just suck, suck suck suck. sorry to any MTH fans but to me and some others(alot of people i know as well) agre that MTH is the root of all evil as far as model railroading is concered. sorry to all but to some thats the way it is.

[CMRR401]

ok another note that may be kinda mean but now i am royaly screwed because i was going to order a FA-1 A-B set in NYC colors from them but now i can't cause of F@$#ing MTH, so thanks for making my day MTH, you screwed another modeler.

[Frisco]

 On the subject of the MTH system if you can't say anything nice about it start your own topic.
[/quote]                       Every-one always has to be negative about this(The quote was just a nice thought) if you don't like them don't buy from them. If anough people don't buy from them they will quite HO scale. For myself I like them and since they got tooling for HO scale locomotives in the           law-suite instead of  just money I don't think they have any thought of leaving HO.Also ( I know you will all attack on this) I wish HO scale would standardize on their system(since it is better in EVERY way). I know that this probaly won't happen, but if you think about it if you were starting out without much of a collection then would'nt you go with there system(operating couplers on the diesels, good smoke units on the steam and about 30 functions instead of about 12).

[CMRR401]

well i'm running on DCC and i don't what people whining that i don't use all the functions cause mabey we don't need all that stuff,.........or atlest the modelers that don't like to show off, besides BLI had made those engines a hell of alot better then MTH will cause all they can do is add there stupid DCS system and call it theres

[Atlantic Central]

CMRR401,

You comments are rude and uncalled for. Regardless of your age, grow up and be respectful.

FRISCO,

You fail to realize or fail to understand that not everyone wants DCS, DCC, sound and/or smoke.

Personally, I think cheezzy smoke and silly sounds like station noises, etc, etc, are too toylike and take the "model" out of model railroading. If you like that stuff, fine, but don't expect everyone to.

I looked very hard at DCC and decided against it, I will not repeat all my reasons again. But I do not want to pay the extra money for sound and DCC that I will not use, AND, I will not buy locos like those from MTH that do not run CORRECTLY (that is full scale speed) on 12 VOLTS DC.

Every MTH HO loco so far released requires 16-18 VOLTS DC to reach normal top speeds on regular DC. My control system will not provide that voltage and it would damage my other locos.

DO YOU GET IT NOW?

Every other manufacturer has acknowledged these things and offers both or, in the case of Bachmann, includes the jumper pins to remove the inexpensive decoder that adds very little to the price.

Why dosen't MTH offer DC versions? - because Mike Wolf thinks he knows more about what I want than I do - he is wrong - my money will continue to go to Bachmann, Proto, Intermountain, Athearn, etc, etc.

Sheldon

[japasha]

I agree with Sheldon on the issue of NMRA compatibility. While I am no longer a member of NMRA over how DCC was implemented, the idea of compatibility for those not using DCC was addressed well. If one manufacturer runs off and does it's own thing, it had better have a reason other than some marketing guy's fantasy.

In 1973 I was building radio control Diesels for my own pleasure but made them 12 volt compatible  so I could turn off the radio and play at the local club. In many ways it was similar to the sys. tem used for the G scale big haulers using an FM carrier with amplitude modulation for speed control. Very simple and bullet proof  The idea fell on deaf ears and the hobby ran off a direction that the marketeers control. I am like Sheldon, I build extremely well filtred DC power supplies and am playing with sound. HO speakers leave a lot to be desired in sound generation I am experimenting with speakers under the layout. Just a simple radio signal runs it. PFM and PBL offer systems like this you can buy and it sounds much better.

While some dreamers want automated real trains, the reality is that humans will be operating the for many years to come. I prefer human intervention at the throttle, on the brakes and coupling and uncoupling, just like the prototype.

I have about $20K of MTH O gauge stuff I'm selling. It is badly designed electrically. Lionel isn't too much better. The lawsuit proved only that someone could lie better than the other guy.

[grumpyoldtrainguy]

The HO scale MTH locos, [ K-4 and Triplex] run just fine on D.C., NMRA Compatible DCC and the MTH DCS systems.
MTH is not forcing anybody to purchase a DCS system.
if you have a DCC system that goes to 28 accessory functions, [MRC Prodigy Advance Squared or Wireless], or the Bachman Dynamis System, [has 21 accessory functions] you can really enjoy the sounds of these locos and get the max out of them.
of course on D.C. you are limited as to what sounds you get, but that is the same with all dual mode sound locos on the market today, [athearn, bli, atlas, proto 2000, etc., etc.].

[Jhanecker2]

In any hobby there will be choices .  Buy what you like and need and let others make their own choices  .   Marketing  wants to sell you everything imaginal  , vote with your money . John  II

[Atlantic Central]

grumpyoldtrainguy,

You are missinformed, the MTH K4 and Triplex do not run "just fine" on DC. At 12 volts they run very slow, it takes 16-18 volts to get a normal speed from them. The NMRA standard propulsion is 12 volts.

As for sound, don't want it or care how it works or doesn't work on DC, but again, I will not buy locos that do not work CORRECTLY on 12 VOLTS DC.

And, I will not pay hundreds extra for features I don't want.

Jhanecker2,

I just voted with my money by purchasing several more Bachmann 2-8-0's and two DC powered F7 ABA sets from Proto2000. MTH missed that $1,000.

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

That Ebay listing appears to be a mistake on the part of the lister, the link to the MTH feature/detail page clearly lists it as O, not HO.

Sheldon