Bachmann DCC and G Scale

[wally]

Will the Bachmann DCC E-Z digital command control system work with  Bachmanns own G scale engines that come DCC ready?

[charon]

Good question, Wally.
I was wondering that myself.
Anybody please?
Thanks,
Chuck

[traindude109]

I had a post like this on the old board. Yes it will. You have to buy Bachmann's 5 amp booster, and you will probably only be able to run 1-2 single motor and 1 twin motor loco at a time. Also, low gardes are a must. You can't use Bachmann's decoders either. Someone will provide you with more information, but the short answer is yes, but there are some limitations.

[StanAmes]

I must admit I am confused by TrainDudes answer.

Yes you can use EZ Command to run the 3 truck shay that comes with a Bachmann Sound on Board DCC decoder. Yes you will need to also have the 5 amp booster (power station).  No need to change out the Bachmann decoder and grades are not a problem. (not sure where this rumor came from)

Not sure how many locomotives you can run at the same time with the Bachmann 5 amp unit in part because there is no standard for amp rating and Bachmanns 5 amps is a lot more then others 5 amps.  There is still a lot of hard wet snow on the layout but perhaps if there is interest I can power up the layout on Saturday and send out a plow train and power it with an EZ Command plus 5 amp booster.

Stan

[traindude109]

I must admit I am confused by TrainDudes answer.

Yes you can use EZ Command to run the 3 truck shay that comes with a Bachmann Sound on Board DCC decoder. Yes you will need to also have the 5 amp booster (power station).  No need to change out the Bachmann decoder and grades are not a problem. (not sure where this rumor came from)

Not sure how many locomotives you can run at the same time with the Bachmann 5 amp unit in part because there is no standard for amp rating and Bachmanns 5 amps is a lot more then others 5 amps.  There is still a lot of hard wet snow on the layout but perhaps if there is interest I can power up the layout on Saturday and send out a plow train and power it with an EZ Command plus 5 amp booster.

Also, I was referring to Bachmanns 1amp decoders they sell, I did not mean the DCC equipped locos. I believe the question referred to locos that are DCC ready, not equipped.

Stan

Sorry Stan. What I am basically saying is if you have a couple single motored locos running at one time with this DCC system and have low grades, then you should be able to use it, but you cannot use the Bachmann decoders. Twin motored locos like the shay or climax will take more power. Either way, you will need the 5 amp booster. It is a great way to start out in DCC, but there are limitations.

[Nathan]

Stan,

Would like to know the results of you test when the weather allows.  I guess there are some advantages to living where you do not see much snow or ice.

Do you have any current draw tests on the three truck as to real world current draw in normal use?

Nathan

[Curmudgeon]

Funny.
The more technical it gets, the more precise the questions and answers need to be.
The question was can you use Bachmann DCC with their DCC ready locomotives.
And I quote:
"Will the Bachmann DCC E-Z digital command control system work with  Bachmanns own G scale engines that come DCC ready? "

Now, the control system, or their decoders?
To tell one they can use a stock Bachmann EZCommand DCC in a Bachmann LS loco is.......pushing it.
Porters, probably.
But, you want current draw, on a 3-truck w've had it for over 7 years.

Once the plating wears away on the drivers, and for crying out loud, a grade makes a BIG difference. On a 3-truck Shay a 4 amp on-board breaker will trip on a 4% grade with 10-12 loads.
A 5-amp will not.

Shiny wheels, 2 units tested, neither with the Quasinamin installed, one 1.6A full slip, one 2.4A full slip on DC.

Now, tractive effort.
Shiny wheels, 2-truck Shay, 12 cars max on a 4% grade.
Same engine, plating worn, 34 easy.
That's three times the load.
So, while current draw may not be a linear function of traction, triple the tractive effort and......?

That was Wally's question.
I don't have to power anything up to tell you current draws.

Stan is right, the DCC equipped don't care about command stations, as long as you buy boosters.
And you need a decoder that will handle the amps.
Still wondering about this one, Stan:

"No need to change out the Bachmann decoder and grades are not a problem. (not sure where this rumor came from)"

You talking an EZCommand decoder or a Soundtraxx (not Bachmann manufacture)?

[wally]

Thanks for the help.

[Jim Banner]

Who's decoder?  If it came from the factory with a decoder installed, then the decoder is a "Bachmann decoder," no matter who made it.  I buy a Ford and it comes with a "Ford transmission," no matter who made it.  No use muddying the waters by getting overly technical on nomenclature.

If it came with a factory installed decoder, why would you want to change it out for another decoder?  Lots of reasons, perhaps, in terms of features.  But certainly not because it was inadequate to handle the motor load.  And only an idiot would install a 1 amp decoder in a 3 amp locomotive, no matter what the scale.  The same guy who would try to save gas by installing a lawn mower engine in a dump truck.

The beauty of DCC is that it does not matter who made the decoder, it will work with the Bachmann DCC E-Z digital command control system.  Not like radio control where my LocoLink equipped locomotive sits there dead on the rails as I madly push the buttons on my Train Engineer throttle.  I suspect it is this non-interchangability of radio control components that makes the compatability of DCC decoders so hard to accept for radio control proponents.

For sizing decoders, we need to know motor draw.  But as far as that motor draw is concerned, it matters not a whit what shape the wheels are in, what the grade is, or how many cars it is pulling - the important current rating is the one with the motor stalled, not moving at all, not turning, not producing any motion, not ... well, you get the idea.

[Curmudgeon]

Jim-
Since this is the "Large Scale" forum, and since they only have one type of factory-installed decoder in any LS engines, my guess is as good as yours.
Oh, and please don't tell Intel you have a Dell Computer with a Dell processor.....

And, since the ads and such seem to be extrememly specific about "Tsunami Technology", I would guess that anyone using NMRA-DCC, one they installed it, would refer to it as "Bachmann-invented DCC.

One last thing.......Wally never asked that question, nor did he ask about factory on-board equipped.......


(Boeing with Boeing engines or GE? The funny part was 80's Jeeps with GM engines.........)

[Jim Banner]

TOC, you are quite right, all Wally asked was whether he could run his g-scale locomotives with decoders installed by Bachmann with the Bachman DCC system.  There were numerous things Wally did not ask, including anything about Bachmann decoders, shiny wheels, worn wheels, current draw, grades, tractive effort, and on and on.

If we accept your premise that Bachmann installs two kinds of decoders, "Tsunami Decoders" in large scale and "Bachmann Decoders" in smaller scales, then traindude 109's first answer was smack on, and should have ended this thread.  One five amp booster is barely enough to run a two motor plus two single motor locomotives at the same time, and then only if there are no steep grades involved.  He might have added "and no long trains are involved either."  He even went so far as to tell Wally he would need non-Bachmann decoders in his other LS locmotives.   At no point did he suggest that the Tsunami decoder in the 3 truck Shay was inadequate to drive a Shay with as many cars as it can handle up the steepest grade it could handle.

Interestingly enough, this is supported by your own data, TOC, where you say a Shay can blow a 4 amp breaker on a 4% grade.  Blowing a 4 amp breaker means the locomotive is averaging more than 4 amps.  That would not leave enough power to also run two single motor locomotives with a 5 amp booster.  To run the Shay and run the pair of single motored units, you would have to limit that Shay to lesser grades, just as traindude 109 claimed.   (I suspect Stan missed that "and" and thought traindude 109 was claiming the Shay could not handle the grade.  Traindude 109 was talking about the booster.)

Traindude 109 also suggested someone else would provided more information but it seems that all the "experts" have been doing is fighting!  So let me say to Wally - there are lots of other decoder manufacturers out there that make decoders suitable for large scale at prices ranging from less than $50 to about $110.  Generally a 3 amp decoder is enough for a single motor locomotive and a 5 amp for a dual motor job.  Four motor locomotives generally have lower power motors and so can also be run on 5 amp decoders, although this is marginal.  Decoders up to 8 amps exist but the choices are limited, and of course price goes up with amps.  To run more locomotives, you can generally add more boosters.  I say "generally" because there are boosters that are limited to one per layout.  The MRC Power Station 8 was such a booster.  Whether the Bachmann 5 amp booster is also limited to one per layout, I do not know - I have not yet had the chance to take one to pieces.   

[Curmudgeon]

Jim-
True, to a point.
This IS the Large-Scale forum, so questions asked here are for large-scale, of which the ONLY decoders installed by Bachmann to date are Tsunami clones.

And, we have no data as to which engine the original poster was referring to.

And, don't quote me on the 5A booster.
This from young Stanley, several responses down:

"Yes you can use EZ Command to run the 3 truck shay that comes with a Bachmann Sound on Board DCC decoder. Yes you will need to also have the 5 amp booster (power station)."

Depends on grades, loads, number of motors.

Now, folks who have seen my small railroad have commented, that to run dcc here (after replacing all the aluminum rail and turnouts, slip joiners for rail clamps, attached track to floating, etc), one would have to have so many 10A booster districts to run the 20 at once we have done, we would have a fully-blocked railroad anyway.

The cost would be significant.

NS or stainless track and switches (no SS on 250 and 215), all the boosters, wiring, signal lines, plus the cleaning of even SS track, the cleaning of wheels (and replacing all the ones with worn plating), constant repair of pickups and springs due to collapsing springs on decoder recharge curent when you do hit a slug trail, yes, I could, spen thousands and thousands, and limit operations to once or twice a year.

Sounds like something I might be interested in.....as soon as I poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick.

And then I could have TWO sets of trains so I could run one set on dcc and the other to take to friends railroads who weren't talked into putting dcc outdoors in the first place.

TOC

[traindude109]

TOC, you are quite right, all Wally asked was whether he could run his g-scale locomotives with decoders installed by Bachmann with the Bachman DCC system.  There were numerous things Wally did not ask, including anything about Bachmann decoders, shiny wheels, worn wheels, current draw, grades, tractive effort, and on and on.

If we accept your premise that Bachmann installs two kinds of decoders, "Tsunami Decoders" in large scale and "Bachmann Decoders" in smaller scales, then traindude 109's first answer was smack on, and should have ended this thread.  One five amp booster is barely enough to run a two motor plus two single motor locomotives at the same time, and then only if there are no steep grades involved.  He might have added "and no long trains are involved either."  He even went so far as to tell Wally he would need non-Bachmann decoders in his other LS locmotives.   At no point did he suggest that the Tsunami decoder in the 3 truck Shay was inadequate to drive a Shay with as many cars as it can handle up the steepest grade it could handle.

Interestingly enough, this is supported by your own data, TOC, where you say a Shay can blow a 4 amp breaker on a 4% grade.  Blowing a 4 amp breaker means the locomotive is averaging more than 4 amps.  That would not leave enough power to also run two single motor locomotives with a 5 amp booster.  To run the Shay and run the pair of single motored units, you would have to limit that Shay to lesser grades, just as traindude 109 claimed.   (I suspect Stan missed that "and" and thought traindude 109 was claiming the Shay could not handle the grade.  Traindude 109 was talking about the booster.)

Traindude 109 also suggested someone else would provided more information but it seems that all the "experts" have been doing is fighting!  So let me say to Wally - there are lots of other decoder manufacturers out there that make decoders suitable for large scale at prices ranging from less than $50 to about $110.  Generally a 3 amp decoder is enough for a single motor locomotive and a 5 amp for a dual motor job.  Four motor locomotives generally have lower power motors and so can also be run on 5 amp decoders, although this is marginal.  Decoders up to 8 amps exist but the choices are limited, and of course price goes up with amps.  To run more locomotives, you can generally add more boosters.  I say "generally" because there are boosters that are limited to one per layout.  The MRC Power Station 8 was such a booster.  Whether the Bachmann 5 amp booster is also limited to one per layout, I do not know - I have not yet had the chance to take one to pieces.   

Thanks for standing up for me Jim!  That is exactly what I was pointing out.

[Curmudgeon]

Still not sure who is arguing.
And still can't figure out why grades are not an issue.
And still can't figure out why a loco on DC with a specific current draw would draw less on dcc.......but sometimes that's the way it reads.
If that was the case, we'd all be putting decoders in the light switches of our houses.

[Nathan]

Curmudgeon,

The original post was about the Bachmann Large Scale 3 turck Shay running on DCC.

Stan and a number of us use DCC out doors regulary and also have experiance with DC.  We experiance no more or no less problems with DCC on SS, Brass, or NS.  Yes, there is a limitation of 10 amps on a booster.  My Dad and I both have run as many as 6 large scale locomotives off of one 10 amp booster.  Yes, most of the locos only drew 1 amp each.

On our club layout, which is primarly DC, I have connected my DCC system with one 10 amp booster and run 4 trains on one loop that has a 4% grade at one point.  At least one trains was going up that grade while one was going up a 2% grade, one was going down a 3% grade and one was on a level section.  One locomotive drew about 3 amps on that 4% grade  with no other locos on the track as measured on a Tony's RRAmp DCC reading meter.  The peak current for all four locomotives was about 9 amps, 6 amps most of the time because of the grades.

And we do take our locomotives to places that have DC only and run them with no problems.

Lets look at DC.  You want to run 4 trains, you buy 4 power packs.  Some of your trains only need 1 amp, a passenger train with a three unit PA-PB-PA and 10 passenger cars needs about 10 amps.  What size trains you run says how much you spend on a power pack.  There are a number of large scale DC power packs that are well over $200 if you want to spend the money.

Now you do your block wireing.  A simple passing sideing for two trains, one going each direction.  If you use a reasonable quality electric switch to choose which of 4 DC power packs is going to control each block, you can spend between $50 and $100 on the four blocks.

DCC is not the only answer.  DC is not the only answer.  MTS is not the only answer.  Battery with R/C is not the only answer.  Live steam is not the only answer.  Each person picks the 'control' system that they feel works for them.

As for 'youg Stanley',  I know he is youger then me, I am only 61, but then my Dad is 85, got his first train when he was 3, and been 'scale' model railroading since 1953.  We all have spent time wiring DC layouts and DCC layouts.  Age is not the important thing, enjoying the hobby of model railroading, no mater what the scale, is what it is all about.

Nathan