EMD F SERIES DIESEL LOCO IDENTIFICATION

[GRASHLEY]

I am relatively new to small scale model railroading.  I model N scale.

Is there any way to distinguish an F3 from an F7 from an F9?  I know the HP is different, but in model locos, this is a moot issue.  Are there any physical or appearance differences?  What does a passenger steam / power package look like?

Thank you in advance.

[brokemoto]

Here are the general rules:


F-3s have high shrouds around the cooling fans.  F-7s and F-9s do not have shrouds around the cooling  fans.

Dynamic brakes on F-3s have grids; on F-7s and F-3s, there is a fan.  It is larger than the cooling fans.

F-3s have 'chicken wire' vents on the sides. F-7s and F-9s have grilles.

The grilles on the sides of F-7s are different from those of F-9s.

Keep in mind that these are general rules.  Most diesel locomotives came in what spotters call 'phases'.  As a manufacturer made improvements, at times, the addition of these improvements would alter the appearance of the locomotive.

Some of the later model F-3s came without the shrouds around the cooling fans.  Some of the later model F-7s came with F-9 type grilles.  These are just examples.  

The thing to do on this is to look for photographs of power that your railroad ran to see what phases of the locomotive your railroad received.  PRR had some late model F-3s that had the fans with no shrouds.  B&O did not have late model F-3s, (at least I have never seen a builder's photograph of a B&O F-3 with the F-7 type fans).  You must look at photographs from the period that you want to model, as well.  Some railroads rebuilt, or caused to be rebuilt, their power, over the years.  Western Maryland had only two F-3s.  They came from LaGrange with the standard F-3 package.  In 1954, WM sent them back to LaGrange to be rebuilt into F-7s.  They came back from LaGrange with the F-7 type grilles, but the high shrouds on the fans remained (they also had the internal changes made).  Over the years, WM replaced the fans, as  required, which means that you will see them with only one, two or three of the fans with shrouds and three, two or one without them.

While this rarely happened with EMD power, some of the power from one manufacturer went to another one for a re-engine job.  This happened frequently with Fairbanks-Morse power, as the opposed-piston engines in these were maintenance hungry and required long shopping periods to service.  New York Central had many of their FM units re-engined with EMD 567s.  Rock Island had several of their ALCo FAs and DL-109s re-engined with EMD 567s, as well.  The re-engined DL-109 had a significant alteration to its appearance.  Consult photographs to see the details.

The visible passenger equipment on EMD F-units usually consisted of two low, round stacks at the B end of the unit.  They were not inlne/parallel to the lines of the unit, rather, they sat katty corner.  THe vent stack was smaller than the escape stack.   In some cases, the escape stack was raised slightly and had a screen around it with a solid top.  Again, you must consult photographs of the unit that you want to model.  Passenger equipped F-3s are the same length as the freight units.  The passenger F-7s and F-9s, called FP-7s/FP-9s, were some four feet longer than the freight units.  There were a few roads that operated standard length F-7s that had steam generators, such as the M&StL, but not many.  I do not know if any US roads had FP-9s.  There were FP-9s in Canada and Mexico, but if any US roads had them, I do not know.  If you are modelling ATSF, only the B-units had steam generators.  There were few, if any, EMD A units on the ATSF that had steam generators.  This may have been a holdover from the FTs.  The passenger FTs had a steam generator in the B-unit, only, for the roads that wanted to operate them in passenger service.

While on the F-unit subject, there were F-2s and FTs.  The F-2 is almost identical to early model F-3s.  The FT was EMDs first freight cab unit.  EMD built them as A-B pairs, connected by a drawbar.  The A unit was somewhat shorter than F-3/F-7/F-9 units.  The B unit had an overhang at B end.  The B unit had room for a steam generator.  Curiously, the batteries were all in the A unit, even though it was smaller (although some roads did add batteries to the FT-B units at later dates).  Some roads did receive shorter B units.  Some roads did receive FTs built with couplers, instead of drawbars.  Some roads made the modification later.  There were even one or two small roads that bought only a single FT-A or two.  Again, consult a photograph of the unit that you want in the period that interests you.  Most of the FTs were gone by the mid-1960s, as the railroads had traded them in to EMD for newer power.   The F-3s that were not rebuilt were mostly gone by the late 1960s/early 1970s.  By the mid 1980s, most of the F-7s were gone.

To be sure, there are one or two F-units still in service, but most that survive are in museums or are on tourist railroads.  Norfolk Southern does have a set of Executive F-units (originally delivered to Southern).  This is probably why Bachpersonn sells them in NS.

Various model manufacturers have sold F-units in N scale over the years.  The best ones available to date are (in alphabetical order):  Bachmann (latest version), Intermountain, Kato and Micro-Trains.  Intermountain has the greatest variety of them, as IM sells them configured with details peculiar to the railroad.  IM has PRR late model freight F-3s with the F-7 type cooling fans, as an example.  MT sells FTs, only.  Kato sells F-7s with the standard grilles and F-3s with the high fan shrouds, only.  Kato does sell the F-units with and without the steam generator stacks, as appropriate to the road.  B-mann F-7s are strictly standard freight model.

There are only two manufacturers that sell decent FP-7s, to my knowledge:  IM and Model Power.  The Intermountains are good.  The Model Powers are not bad, but some of the paint schemes are incorrect.  There are two versions, a so-called 'trainset' and so-called 'hobbyist'.  The 'trainset' version is wired backwards.  They are a bit clunky in the detail department.  This makes them strictly 'entry-level;.  Keep in  mind that MP is currently out of business, although, as this is a recent occurrence, their products are still out there.  Model Recitifier Corp has made arrangements to continue some of the MP line, but what will survive and what will go is TBA.

There have been other manufacturers of F-units in N scale over the years, but the majority of those products are not up to modern standards.  Some of the current sellers of good F-units sold some of these sub-standard F-units, in the past.  Some of the model F-units were pretty bad when they appeared.  Of  the dated products, the best are (in reverse alphabetical order) probably the Life-Like F-7, B-mann SPECTRUM F-7s and Arnold F-9.  The LL is a plastic frame model.  While the details are a bit clunky, and it has some FP-7 and some FP-9 characteristics, the paint jobs are not that bad and they are good pullers.  The real weakness of these is the flexing wires soldered to pivotting trucks that will come unsoldered after some running hours.  When they appeared, these things caused some to suspect that LL was capable of manufacturing something other than a low quality T-O-Y.  The Arnold was also a bit clunky in details, had too much paint slathered on and was really more an FP-7 than the F-9 that Arnold called it.  They are not bad runners or pullers, although the LLs are better pullers.  They do tend to develop internal shorts.  B-mann has sold its current F-7 in three different versions.  The shells have been mostly the same, although different roads have appeared, over the years.  The shells are interchangeable anoung all three versions.  The first to appear was the PLUS.  Avoid that one, as, after a short time, the gears will develop cracks that severely inhibits performance.  There are more than a few of the PLUS still out there, especially at shows.  As a rule, the vendors put a high price tag on them.  North West Short Line did sell geared wheelsets to address the problem, but I have never tried them.  The second to appear was the SPECTRUM.  These are better.  There is no gear cracking problem.  They are not as good as MT, Kato,  IM or the current B-mann version in the lower speed ranges.  The current B-mann version, in the Standard Line,  is the best of the three.  It has excellent slow speed control, even on DC.

I may have left out a few things, but this is my experience with N scale F-units that I can recall, at least.

Kalmbach publishes a book that used to be called DIESEL SPOTTER'S GUIDE.  It has a different title, now, (which I forget--it is something like 'Guide to US Diesel locomotives, 1932-to modern era--something like that) but I suspect that it is still in print.  It gives even more information about the differences between models and phases.

[Desertdweller]

Gee, Brokemoto, That's a pretty fine treatise on F-units.

One of my older locos is an Arnold FP9 set (A+B).  It is a nice runner, but a little noisy.  The A and B units were drawbar connected.  I replaced it with couplers.  The B unit is unusual in that it has steam generator detail on both ends.  I don't know of any actual F units to have that.  Some E units did come with dual steam generators at the rear end of the A unit.

Bachmann F units have shown tremendous improvement in quality.  The original N gauge units weren't even N scale, they were OOO and were about the size of a UP turbine cab unit. The next version was true N scale, and had all-metal gearing that was even noisier than the Arnold units.  Us N-scalers liked them for their sturdiness, although we called them "coffee grinders".

The next version had white nylon axle gears.  These were quiet, but the gears were prone to splitting.

The current version has a black plastic axle gear (Delrin?) and dual flywheels.  These are their best so far.

If you want to add steam generator detail to your F units, just look in your junk box.  There are lots of possible things to use to make a stack and steam vent.  Try cutting off the top of a truck pivot pin to use the shoulder and head for a steam vent.  The exhaust stack can be a short piece of tubing, a small bushing, etc.

I usually weather the area around the steam generator detail with a little black paint around the exhaust stack, and a little white paint below the steam vent to be "hard water deposits".

Les

[brokemoto]

i do not remember a B-unit for the Arnold F, but if you say that it existed, I will take your word for it.  I suppose that Spookshow might have something to say about it, but I have not checked his website on the subject.

I do remember those Bachpersonn metal geared FP-whatever units.  B-mann sold them as F-9s.  They had steam generator stacks on them.  I have one.  It is not bad, considering what it is.  If it has been sitting more than an hour, or so, mine acts like an ALCo when I apply current to it; it starts to spew smoke everywhere.  I do not run it much, in fact, I am not even sure where it is, now.  I have had a few of those second generation plastic gear things, too.  They all fried their motors long past.  I do wonder about the fidelity to scale of those things. 

The Arnold is, in fact, quite noisy.  The B-mann metal geared contraption was a bit quieter; at least mine is.

The real noisemaker of those Arnolds was the ALCo FA-whatever it was.  It had a metal frame, metal gears and a metal shell.  I have one of those things, as well.  It is the REAL coffee grinder of N scale.

Fortunately, things have improved.  I am impressed with B-mann's latest F-7s.  Oddly, the dealers in the Washington, DC area seem to have only A units--no Bs.  There is a show coming up in Virginia that coincides with the N Scale East Convention.  Maybe someone there will have some Bs.  I know that they are out there.  That B-mann guy on FeePay has them.

I still have some old PLUS units.  I wonder what B-mann would return as replacements if I sent them in with the fifteen dollars, assuming, of course, that B-mann would accept the return at this late date.

[Desertdweller]

I think the Arnold B units were all non-powered.

Those old metal-geared Bachmanns sometimes did have a smoking problem.  I think lube oil worked its way onto the motor brushes.  I once had a pair of those A units that smoked so much I named them "Cheech and Chong".  One day, on my old layout, they went "UP in Smoke" in front of the depot.

I have a couple of the Arnold FA's with the metal bodies.  They are noisy, but good pullers.  I think the use of the metal body was a good idea because it allowed the use of a bigger motor, since no separate weight was needed.

Since the F unit bodies shared the same dimensions (except for the FPs and FTs), there seems to be an opportunity for Bachmann to offer a variety of models based on minor variations on the same shell and chassis.  F2's to F9's could be produced with minor changes in die work.

Les

[brokemoto]

I did actually look on Spookshow's website to learn about the Arnold B-units.  Spookshow did state that in order to power the Bs, some work was required.

The metal body FAs are, in fact, good pullers.

As for the interchangeable part F-units, Intermountain already does that.  They cause to be manufactured a basic F-unit body.  There are openings for the fans, steam generator stacks, grilles and lights.  IM then causes the appropriate fans, grilles, lights, steam generator stacks (if appropriate) to be put onto the generic shell before painting for the road under consideration.  Then, they cause it to be painted.  Some have said that you can get the panels for the fans, grilles, lights and s/g stacks from IM to do bashes of your own.  Thus, if you wanted an easy way out to make the Western Maryland F-3s that came back as F-7s, you could buy IM WM Speed lettered F-7s, order the F-3 fan panels, cut out the F-7 fan panels, insert the F-3 fan panels then paint the fan panels.  The only thing left to do would be to change the numbers:  a fairly simple operation.  I have not tried to get parts from IM, but some have told me that you can.  The only models for which you can not use the generic F-unit body would be the FTs and FP-7/FP-9.

B-mann used to sell an FT-A unit in HO.  I do not know if it still does, but if it wanted to do so in N, all that it would take would be a couple of keystrokes.  Two manufacturers have done FTs in N, I would suspect that B-mann would shy from it for that reason.  As for the other F-units, B-mann could certainly either compete with or complement IM.  B-mann could offer roads that IM has not done, or paint jobs that IM has not offered.

[Albert in N]

F-9 A (with cab and horns) units have an extra louvered vent in front (toward the cab) of the front side port hole.  F-7 units do not have that extra vent.  Bachmann's train set F-9 is slightly over sized, but has the vent detail and also has dual front headlights (one in upper headlight housing plus one in the front door like a lot of Western roads, and passenger units had).  The Bachmann F-7 units (both older Spectrum and newer ones) have a single headlight.  From my DC (non-DCC) experience, Bachmann F units usually start with more voltage and run at more prototypical speeds (like 80 scale miles per hour maximum at 12 volts).  This is similar to Atlas, Intermountain, and Walthers/Life Like N scale diesels.  Kato diesels run at less voltage and tend to go too fast (like 130 scale miles per hour at 10 to 12 volts).  Unless you have DCC and program properly, don't mix Bachmann with Kato units in multiple lash ups.   FYI only some older (no longer produced) Kato units had single headlights.  If you want to model single headlight F-7 units, Bachmann is a good choice.  I am contemplating repainting my older DC Spectrum F-7 A&B single headlight unit into MKT red, but that factory SP "black widow" paint job looks so good, I probably will not do it. 

[GRASHLEY]

Thank you to all for the information.  The level of detail is great!!  NOW I KNOW.

[brokemoto]

One more item of interest.  It appears that many of the US F-9s were originally wrecked F-3s and F-7s that Electro-Motive rebuilt into F-9s.  What frequently happens when there is a rebuild-cum-modernisation is that some of the features of the older locomotives remain. 

Witness the Western Maryland F-3s that EMD rebuilt to F-7s.  They received grillework to replace the chicken wire but retained the F-3 fans.  These locomotives were not wrecked, marry, I suspect that the railroad sent them back to LaGrange so that operation with the larger fleet of F-7s would go more smoothly.  WM had only two F-3s but many F-7s.  It wanted more F-3s but could not get them.  This might have been one explanation for WM four FA-2s.

If you model a road that operated some of these rebuilt F-9s, you might need to consult service photographs to learn the appearance in the era that you model.  As railroads pulled locomotives for major shopping, there were, at times, external changes.  Back to the WM F-3s to F-7s, over the years, the railroad replaced the F-3 fans with F-7 fans as the older fans wore out.  Thus, over the years, you will see service photographs of the WM F-3s with a varying mixture of fans.