What happened to upgrade DC power packs?

[skipgear]

Poliss:

If DCC is not subject to voltage drop and dirty track, why then do so many DCC users run buss wires and additional power feeds?  Apparently, many DCC layouts use a block system virtually identical to the DC railroads.  The purpose is to provide full power without voltage drops, and to be able to positively "turn off" tracks.

You should run the same buss wires and feeders in a DC layout as you do a DCC layout. Voltage drop occurs on both systems. Never rely on rail joiners as you primary power connection. A DC layout will slow far from the power feed just as much as a DCC layout will. Feeders are just good electrical practice for any layout. It just seems that the guys into DCC are more consious of good electrical practices.

Uncoupling on the fly is prototypical?  Most railroads have rules against this.
Doing this with passenger trains?  Maybe 100 years ago.  But again, what would I know?

Uncoupling on the fly was very prototypical, as little as 30-40 years ago. Helpers would cut off on the fly on mountain railroads so that once the train made the top of the grade, it didn't have to stop to drop off the pushers on the back. The helper loco would return down the hill light, ready to help the next train. B&O built especially strong cabooses just for this service so they wouldn't have to cut in the train ahead of the caboose.

DC helpers?  I used to have an HO railroad that could do this.  You just keep each loco in its own block, hooked to its own throttle.  If you are running the road engine, just release each block as you leave it.  If you are running the helper, just select the block you are about to enter.  It isn't rocket science.

If it was only that easy. With DCC you can speed match the locos so you don't get the helper pushing cars off the track or dragging things down and stringlining the whole train. Try running a mid train helper in DC through multiple blocks and cabs.....good luck keeping the train off the ground.

DCC locos can run on DC, but I've read (here, maybe) they will require a much higher throttle setting before they start moving.  I would either remove the decoder or wire around it.

I have many DC locos that start at widely different voltages. It's not just DCC locos on DC that have the problem. With DCC you can cure that and have every loco start at the same throttle setting and run at the same speed at any throttle setting. Its called speed matching and it will allow any loco to run with any other loco.

The lights on real locos do not dim when they slow down, unless they have a faulty auxiliary generator.
Modern DC model locomotives use LED headlights that do not dim when the locomotive slows down, either.

The lights on a real loco also don't go off below 5 mph.

[Ron McF]

Instead of buying an all-in-one "power pack" (ie transformer and controller in an integrated unit), you might consider buying a tethered throttle such as those sold by Ken Stapleton, and powering it with a surplus (ie "free) plug pack or laptop power supply. Some of these have memory, which allows you to unplug from one spot on the layout it while the train is moving, and plug it in elswhere.

Regards,
Ron McF

[Country Joe]

I have been a model railroader for many years. I built layouts using DC because that's all there was. I switched to DCC in 2006 and would never go back. For me, throwing block switches as trains run is not fun at all. With DCC I run an engine, not a block of track.

I don't understand why some have to insist that either DC or DCC is the best for everyone. It seems they want validation for their choice. DCC is not a gimmick. It is here to stay until something better comes along. Each of us pursues this hobby in the way that is best for us. I have no need to put down or insult anyone because they do things differently than I do.

There is no best way to do most things in this hobby. There is only what is best for you. This is a hobby. There is no "right" way to enjoy it. If a hobbyist is having fun he/she is doing it "right."

[James in FL]

To get this thread back on track...
From what I understand, this temporary lull in the MRC production is not unusual. I do not believe they are ready to abandon their DC throttle market share just yet.
Their (smallest) 1300 is a great step-up pack.

No worries here...
When I bought mine I got both the Tech4 260 and 280.
Right now, I have more power than I do have layout.
A good thing.

Look around they can be found.

PS...enjoy your hobby your way...

[Ken G Price]

Les, Passenger trains explains it. And the Tech II is a very good power pack.

As there is very little switching compared to my industrial switching layout and I have no passenger trains then DC works very well and is a good choice.

One of the newer Tech4's would be a good DC power pack to use if buying a new one.

[Roget]

I am relatively new to the hobby. (Approx. 3 three years)

When I decided to get started I researched both systems.

I certainly understand a person who has been running DC (and accumulating DC locos) not wanting to spend the money to convert all of their stock to DCC.
That would take a lot of time and money.
Approx. $30.00 & 15 minutes per loco.

I don't however, understand a newbie starting with DC.
This is an expensive hobby regardless of  the operating system we use.
I think most new modelers understand this and will spend the small amount of extra money necessary to go with the latest technology.

With the limited locos available in N scale most of us who get into this hobby can afford to purchase what we need. $30.00 more for DCC probably won't deter anyone from buying a loco.

I personally hope manufacturers continue to provide DC for a long time. I would hate to see some longtime modelers get left out out in the cold.
We get much of our good  information from "oldtimers".

I do however believe that the future of model railroading lies in DCC. (assuming something better doesn't come along)

Just my 2 cents.

[Desertdweller]

Well,  it was never my intention to tell people how they should spend their money, or how they should enjoy their hobby.  It was just that our hobby, being something that "disposable income" is spent on, should deliver the most value for each dollar spent.

I could have built a DCC railroad if the things that DCC delivers were important to me.  I have spent many thousands of dollars building it.  DC or DCC, it is not a cheap hobby.

Using Roget's estimate, a conversion of my locomotive roster (just the ones I use) would run about $1,000, in addition to several hundred dollars for a control system capable of handling those units.  I would still have needed to install virtually all the wiring and block selectors I installed for my DC system to allow reliable power feed and track isolation for engine storage and safety reasons.  Some posters have stated they feel having power on all tracks at all times is safe.  I do not.

As I have pointed out earlier, modern N scale locomotives have constant lighting that comes on when the power does (yes, even under 5mph).  I have several late-model Kato locomotives that have this feature.  Directional lighting using diodes have been an industry standard for many years.  Kato observation cars even have constant lighting on drumheads.

Full-size locomotives have variable headlight settings.  Headlights are required to be dimmed for meets, for example.  If I have an older locomotive that moves slowly with a dim headlight, that causes me no angst.  Actually, the headlights come on before the locomotive moves because they draw less current than the motor does.

My railroad is very specific in terms of time frame modeled and area modeled.  Certain train are modeled with prototypical motive power.  Train sets use dedicated equipment, and no two trains run the same cars except in the case of run-throughs.

I model a situation where there are 20 arrivals and 20 departures a day, involving trains of seven railroads.  Even the through trains arrive and depart from the same direction, so all arrivals have to be turned.  All trains are handled by head-end power only.  I model an urban area where grade crossings are kept to a minimum, at least for main lines.  In my own case, there is little to be gained by going to DCC.  My last big conversion project was converting all my equipment, including freight equipment, to KayDee couplers in 1999.  This was while their patents were still in effect and clones were non-existant.  That project cost several hundred dollars and many hours.

Ken:

My Tech II Dual Pack is still going strong, and will probably outlast me.  The Tech IV would make a good replacement.

The original old MRC dual pack was still working well, but was so far out of date it needed to be replaced.  The manual pulse was difficult to use and noisy, the whole pack hummed, and heated up with use.  One feature I liked with both packs was the on-off switch, a simple thing often overlooked.  I suggest plugging all powerpacks into a surge protector strip with its own on-off switch.  My railroad uses two of these strips, one plugged into the other, so the whole works can be shut off with one switch.  The little red LED's on the current Bachmann throttles make great "pilot lights".

Les

[Albert in N]

FYI, the new October 2012 issue of Model Railroader magazine has a good analysis of DCC on pages 68 and 69 labeled DCCCorner.   I can see some shorting concerns about conversions, especially concerning turnouts (track switches) plus constant AC current going through the rails.  The plus side of DCC is being able to independently control locomotives on the same track, match locomotive speeds, and easier sound control.  However, if you want to convert older N locomotives to DCC, you probably will have to add $66 (give or take) for frame milling for a place to put the converter.  Also, micro soldering is not easy.  For the present, I  will stick with DC on my modest layout.  The plus side is that older N scale locomotives (not DCC ready) are easy to find and the price dropped.  It is your choice, but either way is fun.  Nothing is more relaxing than running trains or visiting with friends at hobby shops or train shows.

[poliss]

I have no problems with my DCC locos shorting on turnouts. If the wiring is done properly there should be no shorts. There is no safety problem leaving DCC locos on powered track. It's DC locos that should not be left stationary on DCC track. The lights on a DCC loco can be turned off with a push of a button. There's usually a headlight symbol on the controller.
Where do you get the $66.00 for frame milling and converter Albert? The highest price I could find for a replacement frame was $15.00 with most being $10.00 plus $22.00 for a suitable decoder. Or you could mill the frames yourself as I did when I wanted to put LED lights in a DC loco.

[Desertdweller]

I got my October Model Railroader today, and read the article on DCC.  I found it to be very fair, discussing both advantages and disadvantages of the system.

I think anyone contemplating starting in DCC, or converting to DCC from an existing DC railroad, should read this article and give it some serious thought.

As far as milling frames for decoder clearance, that is something I would do myself, were I to use that system.

I think keeping a constant 18 volts at 5 or more amps on the tracks at all times is asking for trouble.  This is more than enough to fry a motor or even weld wheels to the rails.  This need not even involve a locomotive.  A car derailed on a switch, or even a screwdriver touching both rails is enough to cause a problem.

Les

[Albert in N]

Maybe I was wrong on milling cost since current exchange price is now much lower at a place like Aztec Manufacturing.  My $66 comment was from some train magazine review from several years ago.  Yes, go online to Aztec for current price list.. 

[poliss]

If there's a short a DCC system will cut the power almost instantly. Far faster than a DC system. An example with dead frog turnouts. If the back to back distance between the wheels is too wide, or the tires on very old locos are very wide. As they run over the frog they may cause a short circuit. On DC systems the loco will usually keep going as the short circuit detection on a DC controller is relatively slow. On a DCC system the short circuit detection is extremely fast and the power will be cut before any damage can occur.

In Germany, Marklin have been using 16v AC for decades, maybe even longer than 12v DC, without safety problems caused by screwdrivers across the tracks shorting the layout.

[Desertdweller]

In the short detection system you describe for DC, it may be an advantage to have a short time delay to prevent interruption of power, rather than an instantaneous cutoff.

In DC layouts with block selection, it is good operating practice to keep block selection switches in the neutral position prior to setting up routes, and to return them to the neutral position when the route is done being used.  This releases the block to another operator, or kills power to track not being used.

Where a DCC layout will have a constant 18 volts AC on all tracks continuously (unless equipped with block selection), a DC layout will have a maximum of 12 volts only on selected blocks.  And only then if running at full-throttle.

As for Marklin, it is my understanding that their equipment, while AC-powered, does not depend on carrier-control for operation.  Thus, it would be similar in wiring to a DC layout with common-rail wiring for half the circuit.  The AC design simplifies things like weyes and reverse loops.  This system does not carry power in the track unless a train is moving on it.  It is a three-rail AC system (like Lionel), except the center rail has been replaced by a row of contact studs.  A multiple-train Marklin layout would be divided into blocks controlled by DPDT switches like a DC layout.  So a Marklin AC layout would be much more like a DC layout than a DCC layout.

Les

[poliss]

No need to have a short time delay. All you have to do is put insulated rail joiners on the frog rails, which I would recommend for DC layouts too. The example was given to illustrate the short circuit protection. There is no problem with DCC track being powered at all times. It's designed for it.
Marklin also have a DCC system which I understand has been around for 27 years, longer than NMRA DCC.
What carrier control? DCC doesn't have carrier control.

[Desertdweller]

All my Bachmann E-Z Track switches use powered frogs.  I do not have any that were made after their production change, which I understand involved an improved switch machine motor and wiring for DCC compatibility.

I have no experience with Marklin.  If they have been using DCC for 27 years, that has been since I made the change from HO to N-scale (1979).  My HO layouts (1968-79) were conventional block-controlled DC.

Even back in those days, Bachmann, although strictly entry-level stuff, was very innovative in their products, and, in my opinion, a cut above other entry-level manufacturers.  Where else could you get Metroliners, TurboTrains, and TGV's?

Les