Loco Bill has raised track questions

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Hi all,

I am considering closing down my existing on the ground outdoor layout, but extending my indoor layout outdoors on raised posts using a removable bridge.  I need a durable low cost way of building the decking the track will ride on.  What materials did you use?  How did you make the curves?  Any pics also appreciated.

I have been to several conventions and have seen raised track on 4 by 4 posts, but the method of attachmant of the decking and what was used escapes me.

Bill

[Sleeping Bear]

   Hey Bill....If you are going to use 4x4 post instead of 3 or 4 inch PVC pipe(witch can be sharpend on one end and driven in using a post driver/pounder like from Tractor supply) I would recommend using pressure treated for the posts as well as for the rest of the lumber.....the bugs will stay out of it and as long as you don't cement it in....it shouldn't rot....in cement ..it will...probably in about a year..................Later All........S.B.

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Good points SB.

The ground I am working in is mostly rock which shatters the PVC which would have been my preference. I will definitely have to go with treated 4x4's.  Diggng the holes will be a nightmare in the rock.  The rock is so bad in places I couldnt even drive in steel t posts for the electric fence I have without digging the holes manually.  It will be pick shovel and pry!!  What are you or others, using for the surface the track is laid on??  Treated wood like 2x6 or other alternative materials like cement board cut into curves???  How did you fabricate the curved deck for curved track??

Bill

[armorsmith]

Bill,

If your ground is that rocky, consider not going below ground at all.  Build the entire support structure like trestle bents.  I would suggest locating and leveling a patio block, maybe 18-24 inches square.  Put one of those pyramid blocks used for decks on that and then your 4x4 post.  Place a second block maybe 24-36 inches on center in the cross track directions and build your bent.  Depending on top construction these may be placed a good distance apart.  This will allow the post to always dry after a wet event and deter the rot for a considerable lone time.  Do a web search for the Port Orford Coast Railroad, or follow these links to articles on the POC  1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC%20RR/POC_Main_Pt-1.pdf and 1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC%20RR/POC_Main_Pt-2.pdf.  It is an above ground layout like you are thinking and may shed some light on construction techniques you can use.  Although this layout is in the Pacific north west and of different materials i thing the system is applicable.

Bob C.

[Sleeping Bear]

  Haven't built a it for real yet but have a dozen times or so in my head and at the local Home Depot....weather I use wood or PVC, I plan to go either side of the "post"with a 2x4....maybe a 2x2and lay 5/4 decking or 2x6 on top of that...corners will be made by cutting angles on both ends of each board and filled on the inside with long triangles cut from another piece of board and may ...depending on how it looks...trim off the out side edge as well...the 2x's will attach to the "post" with bolts and the road bed will use decking screws...as they hold up to weather better....into the 2x's......the real issue will be getting the posts perfectly plumb....other wise the road bed will be tilted and a disaster may occur...witch brings me to my next hold up.....long posts with road bed where it is easy on my back....or short ones that will make for less costly derailments...or do i just build a net around it or a perpetual trestle or something....wont be a happy camper if my Gen 3 takes a dive let alone a $300 RS-3 or a $400 GP-40(rough prices of coarse)never mind the string of custom cars the loco will take with it.
   If you have an equipment rental place near that massive Metropolis of yours ( about like mine)....look into a small tractor with an auger...will knock a couple days off your post install and the cost might be off set by the ability to move the next day...or maybe a local farmer would help you out
   by the way Bill....the rail road gods have spoken and my plow is going on an Aristo long steel....my wife wouldn't let me even touch her Bachmann 8 wheeler for mock up and the Aristo looked better than the Delto and the LGB.......and I rolled the dice on the e-place and won one so ....ya know......LET THE BASHING BEGIN !!!!!!!!!!!
                                                                          Later All.....S.B.

[R and K RR Products]

   Bill
I use post and ladder construction on my layout with the post being 2" PVC and the ladder out of cedar. I thought about using PVC for the ladder but the cost and lack of strength, decided against it. You could use my type of ladder with 4X4 posts setting in deck block made to hold the 4X4 posts.
For the ladder I start with a clear 1 X 6, 12 feet long and rip it in half. then I take the half's and rip them on edge so I end up with 4 pieces that are about 3/8" thick by 2 7/8" wide and 12 feet long. I take cheap cedar fence pieces and rip them the same width and cut them 5 1/4" long. Using 1 1/4" deck screws, I put the cross pieces about every 8" on one side of the stringer at the workbench. At the layout I get the one side with the cross pieces on it up and screwed to the posts keeping it level and then keeping the other side level, start screwing it together. Using acrylic calking I glue 3/4" stryofoam on the ladder for the roadbed. 
  Here is the ladder before the foam is added.



  With the roadbed in place





I use Richard Smith's table method for my towns.







If you need more information on this, just let me know.

Rodney

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Bob , Gerry, Rodney,   Thanks for the great ideas and comments. 
Gerry I will look forward to more pics of the kitbash.  I do have my own diesel tractor and a sizable auger, but even that Auger gets bogged by a 2foot by 1 foot boulder 6 inches under the ground

Bob I will look at the POC link on MLS.

Rodney  thanks for the great Pics.  I really like the PVC posts.  I may find a way to use them afterall.
I do have some questions:

I am wondering what size PVC you use? Schedule 40? 60?  How thick is the foam board? do you use pink or blue or does it matter?   Why do you cut the 12 foot pieces down to 3/8 in thick? bendability? Do you use them full width on the straight sections??   What coating do you use to protect the foam?  The yard looks fantastic, what did you use for the ballast??

Bill  PS the train looks super!!

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Bob, the POC info on MLS is really great and led to other pictures as well  Thanks again.

[chuckger]

Loco Bill,

  Check out Steve Sitel's post on his above ground RR His support system is all above ground, and the top is sort of like the port oxford rr. I think he had a thread on MLS and LSC.

  Chuck

[R and K RR Products]

  Bill
PVC is 2" schedule 40 and when I go to the big box store, I compare prices between the pluming and electrical conduit and buy the cheaper of the two. The post are on 5 foot centers on the straights and 2 1/2 in the curves to keep it level. The foam is 3/4" and can be either pink or blue and I glue it down with acrylic caulk.  Once the roadbed is done, I paint it with 2 coats of paint with primer in it.  The reason for ripping it to 3/8" is so I can bend it around curves and I use it on the straight for the cost factor.  I use tan colored caulk to glue the track down to the foam.

  On the tables I lay 1/2" hardware cloth on the frame, then lay weed barrier on that and back fill with limestone screenings with a little portland cement mixed in. It is a very solid base when it is done. 

I do brag about how well this has worked for me cause I have run trains for 100's hours unattended (while testing gearboxes) with NO derailments.     

  It is sooo much easier on the knees and back too once you have it done for us that is getting older.

Rodney

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Rodney I really like your method.  Getting four  12 foot pieces out of a 1x6 is very economical too.   I will be doing a simple loop out of and back into the barn, without any tables.  At most I will have only one siding.  I will be keeping it level at about waist high.

Do I understand that on the sections with foam, you just paint the foam and put the track down directly on the foam with caulk for glue??  sounds too easy!! Have you had any problem with it coming apart?  Is it hard to remove track if you want to make changes??   When you butt joint the cedar side rails how long do you make the joining pieces, six inches enough, or more?? glued and screwed I presume. 

Have you tried tacking the track to the cedar cross pieces??

What is the radius of your curves??  any of them 5 foot radius??   How deep did you go with the PVC?

Is there anything you would do different if you were starting over??

Thanks, Bill

I will gather materials and get everything ready to begin construction in September.   

[R and K RR Products]

  When I pull track up the caulk and some paint comes with it cause the paint doesn't stick well to the stryofaom. Then the caulk comes off the ties easily. For but joints, I use a piece of stringer about 14" long and use some scrap cedar to back that up so the screws have something to get a hold of.
Yes I do use 1 1/2 " small nails into the cross pieces to hold the track. In the winter the nails would push out of the wood so that is when I went back and glued the track down.

I biggest problem that I have is the foam roadbed with expansion and contraction of the ladder.  If I could find something just as cheap to replace it I would.  I'm lazy and the foam need to be touch up 2 of 3 times a year with paint. The UV will eat up the foam that is not protected but if you are in a barn, you'll not have that problem.

My radius are 12' (24' diameter) and larger, and I haven't tried it on a tighter radius but I would think you could get it down to 6' to 8' radius with out too much problem. 

Later, I'll post some more photos of the layout as it is now.

Rodney