Prototypes vs. Models (WP&YR and Uintah)

[Romark]

I have been trying to verify whether the White Pass & Yukon Railway actually ran some of the steam engines that are offered by Bachman.  I have not received a reply from the WP&YR regarding their history.

Is there a source that tells what engines were actually used by the WP&YR?    I would definitely appreciate knowing the book title, author, and publication data for a good reference to the WP&YR.

I realize that model railroading can be as much "it could have been" as it can be "it actually was"!  However, it would be nice to know that the engines available from Bachmann were indeed used by the railway at one point in time.

Of similar note, I have been studying photographs of the Uintah Railway.  They ran a number of shay engines.  I am considering getting one or more of Bachmann's shays for building a railroad layout based on the Uintah.

[VirginiaCentral]

I have been trying to verify whether the White Pass & Yukon Railway actually ran some of the steam engines that are offered by Bachman. 

I found this in about two minutes on the web: 
http://narrowmind.railfan.net/WPYR/late-steam/late-steam.html

[Steve Stockham]

In short, "yes" and "no." The prototype for the Bachmann 10-Wheeler is Tweetsie #12 but looking at photos of WP&Y #10 and #14, it isn't a big stretch to see the similarities! In fact, next to the actual Tweetsie prototype, the WP&Y 10-Wheeler is probably the  closest that a prototype will get to the Bachmann Big-Hauler model!

[Matthew (OV)]

The WP&Y had some engines that were very similar to the Bachmann 2-8-0 ("Connie")

See:  http://narrowmind.railfan.net/WPYR/early-steam/early-steam.html

Notice #6 (#56) and #7 (#57) which, particularly after being converted to simple cylinders, are very similar, though the size is a bit different, and the valve gear is not the same.  #69 (recently returned to service) is also similar, though a great deal larger and bulkier, and, again has different valve gear.  

Georgetown Loop #40, which ran at the White Pass for a couple of years is also very similar, though, it's built by ALCO, and has piston valves and dry pipes that exit through the sides of the smokebox, and a slightly different cab (The Bachmann is deckless, while #40 is not, exactly.)

Back when the 2-8-0 was released there were a couple of US prototypes that were mentioned as very similar, including the Mt. Airy and Eastern #9, and I believe the Silverton Northern had a couple that were similar.

As to other engines... WP&Y 62 is similar to the "Annie" 4-6-2, though, as many folks know, the prototype is ET&WNC #12 ....  ET&WNC #10 and #14 were very similar to #12, and were taken to Alaska for military use on the WP&YR during WWII ... you can see the photos on the page Virginia Central linked above.

The White Pass had a climax, #8, but it was a 3 truck version ....  and you might be able to make a version of #51 and #52 (#1 and #2) from the Spectrum 2-6-0, but it would require some surgery.

I think that's about it ...

Matthew (OV)

[altterrain]

Hey Matthew,

I have always wanted to ask - what is "(OV)"?

-Brian

[Kevin Strong]

Georgetown Loop #40, which ran at the White Pass for a couple of years is also very similar, though, it's built by ALCO, and has piston valves and dry pipes that exit through the sides of the smokebox, and a slightly different cab (The Bachmann is deckless, while #40 is not, exactly.)

The piston valves and dry pipes (exhaust) are not original to #40. I forget when they were added, but the loco was built as a slide-valve loco.



The cab is also virtually identical to the B'mann cab, and is deckless. The biggest difference is that #40 does not have a rear wall like the B'mann cab does. But the boiler does extend beyond the end of the cab, as it does on the model. The rear hand rails are almost identical, to boot.



In truth, turning the B'mann 2-8-0 into a model of #40 would be quite a simple conversion, and I'm rather surprised it hasn't yet been done (that I've seen).



BTW, the loco now runs on the Georgetown Loop, Colorado Railroad Museum where these photos were taken. (Another 1:30 AM mistake)

Later,

K

[Steve Stockham]

I think you mean used to run on the Georgetown Loop! It currently is helping out the Colorado Railroad Museum as their operating steam engine during their D&RGW #346's restoration. ( By the way, they're almost done with it and it is beautiful! It has been named the Robert W. Richardson in honor of Robert Richardson's contributions to the preservation of Colorado railroad history and his involvement with the origins of the CRRM! Well deserved!) It, along with it's sister (#44) and three ex-Westside Shays (#'s 8,12 & 14) used to run up on the Loop under the operations of the Georgetown Loop Inc.
  Now, the Colorado Historical Society has a new operator, Railstar and is operating a little 2-6-2 Prarie style ex-Kaihalui plantation engine. If you're in the area you should check them both out as Golden, CO (the home of the CRRM) is only a 45 min. drive from Georgetown!
  After enjoying both places head on down to Caboose Hobbies on Broadway just south of downtown Denver and you'll have had yourself one heckuva great day!

[Matthew (OV)]

To start with ...

Long ago, when the board was yellow, and the Bach-man waved his hat...

"(OV)" was added to "Matthew" to distinguish it from the others ... and stood for "Original Version" as for awhile I was the only "Matthew" posting regularly.  Initially, it was to have been (TOV) but there's that other fellow, and I'd hate to seem impertinent, particularly to a Capo!  ... in ANY case, shortly after applying the suffix, it was pointed out to me that there was a piece of DRGW equipment that carried the same moniker, and as a narrow gauge fan, that was a nice bonus.... and the label stuck.  And, it worked to identify me as I started participating in other forums as well.

Now.. as to #40 ...

I would LOVE to convert one of mine.  I'm an ALCO fan anyway, and I like the slanted dry pipes (er.. intake, the blast pipe is still in the middle for exhaust, I think...) though I'm not sure how I'd convert it without having to redo all the valve gear, which would be ... well, a challenge to say the least.  Though... looking at that, perhaps just replacing the valve chest and outside sheetmetal cover would do the trick?  Anyone know if there's a bash part available from some other loco that would work for a new valve chest?

I'd be interested to hear the story of its conversion (the prototype #40, I mean...)  that sounds like MAJOR surgery to me!

Back to the original line, which sounds like a good way to start epic tales like "The Rise and Fall of the Vulcan" and "The Emperor's New (Shay) Trucks" .... I have to wonder how I ended up on the "senior varsity" here!  Has it really been eight years?

Matthew (OV)

[Kevin Strong]

Whoops! You're right--they're intake pipes. That's what I get for posting at 1:30 in the morning.

Incidentally, anyone who may want a "#40" number plate for the front may try contacting the Royal Gorge Railroad (former operators of the Georgetown Loop). They used to carry them in their gift shop. They're 7/8" diameter--a touch large, but cool looking. I doubt they've ordered any more since they left the loop, but they may still have a few on hand.

As for the valve gear, there have been a few folks who have converted it to Walschearts. It's not the easiest task, but not horribly difficult, either. The hardest part is the reverse quadrant, which I think could be sacrificed from a 10-wheeler without too much difficulty if you didn't want to build it yourself. Parts may have one, or you can wait until Christmas and buy an entire loco for $100.00. Convert the 10-wheeler to Stephensons, and you've got two new locos for the line.

Later,

K

[ksivils]

YES!  Two ET&WNC 10 wheelers made their way to the White Pass and briefly operated there during WWII.  They were destroyed in a fire.

So, you can safely pretend that your ten wheeler lettered for the White Pass is legitimate.

Good sources of information are White Pass & Yukon Route by Stan Cohen and Railroads of Alaska and finally a book titled, I think, Railroads of Alaska/Yukon.

Oh, and if you can find it, Narrow Gauge Railways of Canada.

Boerries Burkhardt maintains an excellent site about the White Pass and there is a White Pass list on the Yahool groups - they can answer just about any question you would have there.

Hope this helps.

[Charlie Mutschler]

ET&WNC had four Baldwin 4-6-0s which appear to have been mechanically identical:  Nos. 10, 11, 12, and 14.  Two of them, Nos. 10 and 14, were requisitioned by the US Army for use on the White Pass in 1942, and they were used for a brief period.  Both were in the Whitehorse, YT engine house when it burned in December, 1943, and were too badly damaged for repair.  After the war ended, both were shipped south with the other equipment the WP&Y chose not to purchase, and were scrapped.  Since ET&WNC 12 is the prototype for the Bachmann Annie, you could get a 1:22 model of any of the four (ET&WNC 10, 11, 12, 14) out of it.  The White Pass & Yukon lettering is correct for Nos. 10 and 14, though many of the other locomotives owned by the Army were lettered USA. 

WP&Y had several outside frame 2-8-0s, but No. 69 was the one with Walschaert valve gear and slide valves.  No. 69 still exists, and is much, much larger than the Bachmann 2-8-0, which is based on a smaller 30 inch gauge prototype.  WP&Y 69 is a very large 36 inch gauge locomotive, probably not something that could easily be made out of the Bachmann locomotive without extraordinary effort.  Depending on how close you are willing to live with, yes, the WP&Y had outside frame Baldwin 2-8-0s.  Most had Stephenson valve gear.  The Bachmann 2-8-0 has the Baker-Pilliod vavle gear which is correct for the prototype, but which was not common on narrow gauge locomotives built by Baldwin.  Again, depending on how close you want to come, you may be able to get something that works.  People have rebuilt the Bachmann 2-8-0 into 1:22 scale D&RGW K-27's, which is a heck of a lot of work! 

[Charlie Mutschler]

Uintah's roster included several inside frame 2-8-0s, an outside frame 2-8-2, and an inside frame 2-8-2 - all of which were too rigid for use on Baxter Pass, and operated either on the far side of the pass, or from Mack to Atchee.  The little 0-6-2T passenger locomotives and the 2-6-6-2T's could negotiate the curves on Baxter Pass, as could the Shays. 

All of the Uintah's Shays were two truck (B Class) Shays.  By weight: 
37 Tons - Uintah 1.
45 Tons - Uintah 2, 3, 4, 5. 
50 Tons - Uintah 6, 7. 

No. 7 is of some historical interest - a Lima Shay without a Lima builder's plate.  She was constructed in the Uintah's Atchee shop from spare parts on hand, plus a boiler ordered from Lima specifically to complete her. 

[Charlie Mutschler]

Royal Gorge 40 was originally built for the International Railways of Central America (IRCA), a United Fruit Co. subsidiary.  Baldwin supplied a large number of 36 inch gauge outside frame locomotives for use in Mexico, central, and south America.  The early outside frame 2-8-0s were all equipped with Stephenson valve gear, and had the counterweights cast on the driver centers, like inside frame locomotives.  The later ones had the large counterweights outside on the cranks. 

Baldwin built IRCA Nos. 35 - 44 between 1912 and 1921.  All were equipped with 38 inch drivers, 16 x 20 inch cylinders, and weighed 93,400 pounds.  As built they had slide valves and Walschaert valve gear.  At some point the IRCA rebuilt them with piston valves, resulting in the locomotive you see in RG 40. 

A large number of outside frame 2-8-0s were operated by the Nacionales de Mexico, including ones built by Baldwin, ALCO, and Kerr-Stewart (Great Britain). 

[gunslinger473]

   Well thats strange, From what I recall the # 40 was shipped back to the WP&YR some time ago. I'm not sure wesr I saw the article but it was online, there also were pictures of # 40 running on the WP&YR ROW.

[Charlie Mutschler]

Several years ago the WP&Y leased No. 40 from the Georgetown Loop Railroad, to give them a second steam locomotive for use with tourist trains in the summer months.  At the time the enthusiast press reported the lease was for several years - five sticks in my mind, but don't quote me.  This did not occur, and the WP&Y ended the lease sooner than the expected period, and returned No. 40 to the Georgetown Loop.  Around this time the WP&Y acquired WP&Y No. 69 back from the Stuhr Museum in Nebraska, where it had been operated some years before. 

Nos. 40 and 44 were originally built for use in central America, were purchased in the late 1960's by the Ashbys, who were the initial concessionaires for the Georgetown Loop, and were never used in Alaska during their regular service lives.  No. 69 spent her entire pre-tourist railroad career on the WP&Y, then went to the Keystone Central tourist railroad in South Dakota, and from there to the Stuhr Museum.  When the Colorado Historical Society decided to select a new concessionaire, the Ashby and Greska families, who had successfully operated the railroad for 30 years were not selected, and they needed to remove their equipment from the Georgetown Loop railroad.  This is why much of it is now at the Colorado Railroad Museum, where the photos of No. 40 were taken. 

I'm sure there are other aspects of why decisions were made, and plans changed, but that's really not the subject of this forum. 

Short answer:  Scale models of WP&Y locomotives in 1:22 or 1:20.3 are not common, and some models in either scale may be more accurate than others.  Bachmann's "Annie" 4-6-0 works well as a starting point for a 1:22 model of the two ex ET&WNC 4-6-0s used briefly on the White Pass & Yukon.  If you want the Baldwin 70 series 2-8-2s, I believe another firm offered one.  Seven of the D&RGW K-28 class 2-8-2s were requisitioned for use on the WP&Y by the US Army.  Another vendor has offered this in brass, which would be  easy to reletter  and renumber as USA 250 - 256. 

Charlie Mutschler
Who continues to anticipate Mudhens . . .
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