Confusing versions of locos and cars

[philkeys]

I'm just getting started with a G scale railroad and am finding out that there are several versions of the same loco and car.  I just bought an Annie ten wheeler, a passenger car, an observation car, a tank car and bobber caboose.  The Annie I got doesn't have any valve gear.  On the Internet I see other Annies (not Spectrum) with valve gear.  My passenger car has brass colored metal railings and no lights.  The observation car has black plastic railings and lights.  I have also seen black metal railings for sale.

The observation car and caboose came in the original box so I know their item numbers.  I haven't been able to find item numbers on the loco and cars themselves.  Are they there somewhere?

Is there any references to obsolete versions somewhere?

Is it possible to add valve gear to my Annie?

Thanks for the help.

[on30gn15]

I just bought an Annie ten wheeler, ...The Annie I got doesn't have any valve gear.  On the Internet I see other Annies (not Spectrum) with valve gear.  
Is it possible to add valve gear to my Annie?

Hey there;

I can't give absolute answer to all your questions but I can speak to the valve gear matter.
Not all Annies have outside valve gear.

If they are modeled after a prototype which had its valve gear between the wheels and frame, "inside valve gear" the model will not.

For example, these 2 do not have outside valve gear.
91605 http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=3730
&
91604 http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=3729

? --> do you have a way to take digital photos so you can post one and then link to it here so we can see what the loco is?

The observation car has black plastic railings and lights.  I have also seen black metal railings for sale.

Using only my experience, at least some of the passenger cars which come in kit form have the metal railings while cars from sets have plastic railings.

[scottychaos]

Technically both versions of the Annie do have valve gear!
they just have different types of Valve gear..
Stephenson and Walschaerts.

The one that doesnt look like it has valve gear is the Stephenson version..
the valve gear is there, its just not quite as obvious as the Walschaerts valve gear.

The Annie is Generation 6 of the Big Hauler ten wheeler..
there is a new Gen 7 that is coming out right now.
(cant really call the new one the "Annie" as the "annie" was the 10th anniversary version only..
the new one should simply be called "Generation 7" to avoid confusion)

the different generations are listed here:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html

You could add the Walschaerts gear to a Stevenson loco, but you would have to take it off
another engine, its not "sold separately"..its probably not worth it to try..

Scot

[Loco Bill Canelos]

There is a lot of confusion surounding the Bachmann 4-6-0.

Below is a chart which was developed by Barry Olsen , Dave C and myself back around 2001 which is designed to identify the chassis versions of the Bachamnn 4-6-0 locomotive which was first produced in 1989.  and the 10 anniversary 4-6-0 produced in 2000 with a high level of metal detail parts and metal valve gear.  The original Big Hauler 4-6-0 is still produced and included in most train sets currently made. and the 10th Anniversary 4-6-0 is also still in production, but with new metal gears as of late this year


We defined chassis version as the mechanism inside the loco rather than details or decorations on the loco in order to avoid confusion as to the mechanical properties of the loco.  This chart will allow you to identify the mechanical insides of a 4-6-0 you may want to buy at a swap meet or on Ebay, without taking it apart or having a Bachmann number.

Big Hauler 4-6-0 Chassis Version Identification  by Bill Canelos                               
Version 1  1988-1990  Battery Powered R/C Units                             
Version 2  1990-1994  Smooth Bottom Cover  You can turn drivers by hand and motor will turn                             
Version 3  1994-1998  Smooth Bottom Cover You cannot turn the drivers by hand                             
Version 4  1998-1999  Large wide hump dead center between the rear drivers on bottom cover                             
Version 5  2000-Pres  3/8th inch wide hump offset between the rear drivers and a plastic lubrication plug the size of a dime to the rear of the hump..                             
Version 6  2011-           New Chassis for Annie only, has metal gears and new front truck other features yet to be determined. Currently identifiable only by the new front truck                             
Note that the dates overlap and as of Nov 1, 2008 have not been fixed more precisely, but I believe all new sets introduced in 1999 with the VHS instructions were version 5                             
The following sets released in late 1999 were Version 5 Chassis 90031, 90032, 90033, 90034, 90035 and 90037. 

AS DEFINED ABOVE BOTH THE BIG HAULER 4-6-0 AND THE ORIGINAL 10 ANNIVERSARY 4-6-0 HAVE THE VERSION 5 CHASSIS.
copyright 2001-2011  All rights reserved.                         

Some folks use decoration or details to define the 4-6-0 loco.   This sometimes causes confusion because the decorations vary, such as valve gear, steam dome. coal or wood burner, metal details or plastic details, cab style and so on. 

Some also use separate versions for the Standard Line Big Hauler 4-6-0 and the 10 Anniversary 4-6-0.   

Using the 10th anniversary 4-6-0 as an example some might say that there are 8 versions while others say there are only two and they do this because of differences in the details as mentioned above rather than the internal mechanism.

If you tell me the the lettering and numbers on the cars and locomotive, I may be able to tell you if they have a number.  Some Bachmann sets have items in them which never had a number because they were never sold as a separate item.

I maintain an extensive searchable database of all Bachmann large scale locomotives and rolling stock items, but I am away from my main computer right now, If you either describe you items here or email me with them I will probably be able to identify them when I get back home later this week.

[scottychaos]

Bill,
Barry recently stated in the other thread that he found a difference between the Gen 5 and the Annie chassis..
therefore they are not the same..
therefore the Annie can be considered Gen 6 based on not only the detail upgrades, but also on the basis of the chassis as well..your list from 2001 is all well and good, but new info has come to light since then proving the data from 2001 is incomplete and no longer relevant for lumping the Gen 5 and the Annie together into the same generation..

you might have thought they were the same back in 2001, but you missed something..
Annie is Gen 6..always has been.
The new one coming out right now will be Gen 7.

Scot

[Loco Bill Canelos]

No, Scotty you probably misunderstood something.  I have discussed this extensively with Barry and others.  While there are cosmetic and detail differences, there is no MECHANICAL DIFFERENCES of any kind.  Both mechanisms, motors, gears are exactly the same in both the version 5 Big Hauler and the original Annie 4-6-0.  Barry and others are agreed that from a mechanical standpoint both are mechanically the same. but obviously cosmetically different.  for example see through sides or solid side metal detail parts or plastic detail parts, one with backup lights one without and so on.  Since the new Annie has metal gears rather than the plastic gears we have agreed to call it the version 6 chassis, based only on mechanical differences. 

We have never tried to classify 4-6-0's either Big Hauler or Annie using detail differences as you seem to be trying to do.  Since I have an extensive photo and discriptive database of every 4-6-0 made by Bachmann since they came out in 1989,  I could try to make up a detail and mechanical version of all of them, but that would result in probably more than 30 plus versions.   I may yet try to do it, but there are so many differences I am hesitant to try. 

Just looking at Annies, there are Annies with Walshearts and Annies with Stephenson valve gear, some have three window cabs and other have two window cabs, then there are wood burners and coal burners. and so on.  So from a descriptive standpoint alone that would be six versions of just the original Annies, and six of the new Annies, which would make twelve versions.   

it is for this reason that Barry and I and others have long ago established the mechanical aspect of the chassis as the basis for the version chart I posted above.

I have had extensive support from Bachmann in developing the databases I have been maintaining for over 15 years and the chassis version system is part of one of databases  I have.

From a "mechanical" standpoint, I wonder if you could please explain what exact differences exist  in the mechanism in the Version 5 Big Hauler and the mechanism in the original Annie?   Your response would be appreciated.

[JerryB]

Bill,
Barry recently stated in the other thread that he found a difference between the Gen 5 and the Annie chassis..
therefore they are not the same..
<snip>

Scot:

Could you please provide a link to 'the other thread' where Barry Olsen ". . .found a difference between Gen 5 and the Annie chassis . . . "

I apparently missed it and can't seem to locate it now.

snip>
. . . you might have thought they were the same back in 2001, but you missed something..
<snip>

Exactly what is the ". . . something . . ." that the experts are missing? This is obviously an important issue to you, but I haven't seen you provide any details as to exactly what the chassis differences are. Please educate us with the facts.

If you don't have or can't provide some factual detail, I'll stick with BBT's Barry Olsen, 'Loco' Bill Canelos and the others who have PROVIDED solid, detailed information.

Thanks & Happy RRing,

Jerry

[Loco Bill Canelos]

Hi, Jerry,

I cannot find the post Scot is referring to, but it was a comment by Barry about the see thru style motor block box under the Annie  while the Big Hauler is solid.  In the same post Barry stated that the two were mechanically the same, a point which Scot missed.  I thought I would add some additional clarification since the whole point of the chassis identification system is to clarify rather than confuse the board readers.

Jon Millers article about the differences between the original 4-6-0 and the Annie is the best I have seen,  in the article JD states:
"Before looking at the differences between the two locomotives a discussion of their drive trains is in order. Both standard and Annies being produced today use what has come to be know as a Version 5 drive train. Over the years, since its introduction the 10-Wheeler has had five distinct variations of its drive train. Version 5 is by far the most robust and trouble free of any of the drive trains used in these engines."

When JD refers to the "standard" 4-6-0 it means the same as the original Big Hauler 4-6-0.

Here is the link to the full article:

http://www.grblogs.com/index.php/2007/11/08/bachmann-10-wheelers?blog=4

Barry and I and others have agreed to call the new Annie chassis version 6 because of the new metal gears and when we say chassis we mean mechanical rather than style differences.  I have included Barry's quote below 

Bill,

I agree that this new drive should be labeled V. 6.

I can't wait to see one (the drive, that is).

Barry - BBT

It is for all these reason we will call it version 6.

Bill

[JerryB]

Bill:

Thanks for the clarification!

And, a special thanks to J D Miller, Barry Olsen & especially to you for doing the research, documenting the observations and keeping the archived information.

It is really helpful to be able to determine exactly what is 'under the hood' when dealing with these great Bachmann models!

Happy RRing,

Jerry

[scottychaos]

Hi, Jerry,

I cannot find the post Scot is referring to, but it was a comment by Barry about the see thru style motor block box under the Annie  while the Big Hauler is solid.  In the same post Barry stated that the two were mechanically the same, a point which Scot missed.  I thought I would add some additional clarification since the whole point of the chassis identification system is to clarify rather than confuse the board readers.

(that was the post I was referring to)

So if I understand it correctly, the Annie chassis is clearly different from the Gen 5 chassis, but for the purposes of calling them both Gen 6, we will say they are exactly the same. fascinating.

Scot

[Kevin Strong]

For what it's worth, I was always under the impression that the "generation" designation was tied specifically to the drive components, not any other aspect of the locomotive. So, if the "Annie" and not-quite-the-latest-version Big Hauler share the same motor/gearbox and drive components, then they would be the same "generation."

Later,

K

[scottychaos]

Kevin, that might be true..but who ever said "drive components" *alone* must be the only criteria for designating generations? there is no rule that states that..its completely arbitrary..

it might have made sense to use drive alone to designate Generations 1 through 4, because the drive was truly
the major difference then, and really the *only* difference..but that is no longer the case..so there is no need to stick to the old "rule"..
Look at the differences between the Gen 5 Big Hauler and the Annie:

1. Annie has metal rods and valve gear, Gen 5 has plastic.

2. Annie has improved detail on the boiler, cylinders and cab (steel cab version)
externally its a very different loco from the Gen 5, and greatly improved.

3. Annie has a different frame than the Gen 5 (the cut-outs Barry mentioned)

The Annie is a VERY different loco from the Gen 5..but we should call them the same generation simply because they have the same motor and gears?? says who?

IMO calling them both Gen 5 is MUCH more confusing than calling one Gen 5 and calling the Annie Gen 6.
saying they are both Gen 5 implies they are "the same"..when they clearly are very different.

And many people have been calling the Annie Gen 6 for the past 10 years..this is nothing new.
This came from George Schreyer's site, where he said "There are at least SIX different motor/gearing systems in use in Big Haulers. " He said this 10 years ago..that is where 6 generations came from..
http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/big_hauler_tips.html
and maybe he was wrong! maybe there are only 5 versions of motor/gearing afterall..
but that still doesnt mean the Annie isnt worthy of being Gen 6, based on all the other differences..

Sure, there might be 5 different types of gearing..but does that mean there are only
5 kinds of Big Haulers? nope..there are clearly 6 different kinds of Big Haulers..
Gen 5 and Gen 6 (Annie) happen to have the same motor or gears..but other details
are *very* different..

People have been calling the Annie Gen 6 for 10 years, ever since it came out..because it makes sense..
its logical and understandable..the differences between the Gen 5 and the Gen 6 annie are so large,
that is no reason to *not* call them separate generations..
Changing things now and calling the Gen 5 *and* the Annie both Gen 5 makes no sense at all..

Annie should be called the "Generation 6 Big Hauler" with the same gearing as Gen 5.
The new one coming out right now will be Gen 7.

and..IMO the new Gen 7 should also *not* be called "Annie"!
because the Annie is the "10th Anniversary edition" only..came out in the year 2000.
The new one cant logically be called "Annie"..but that is probably a losing battle!

Scot

[Sleeping Bear]

  I'm sorry, I've tried real hard to stay out of this but I feel like I must put my two cents in. I fail to see where the problem is  in understanding that the classification is based on the internal drive train, not the gazillion variations in detailing. When it comes right down to it, differences in details like coal or wood fired, plastic or metal parts, more or less parts, straight or balloon stack, see through frame or not, and so on and so on, could run into dozens of variations. Perhaps more if you want to count in paint schemes, then it would get confusing. Since the classification was started to tell the difference between the "important" parts, the drive train, I don't see the point in starting to nit pick over what really boils down to level of detail. The drive train is the area that has been upgraded to improve operation and reliability and on the latest version, the pilot truck as well. I'm going to stop there before I really get on a rant, hope I haven't offended too much.   Later All........S.B.

[Loco Bill Canelos]

 Scot , Give it up, you keep mixing detail changes up with mechanical changes.  Barry said they were mechanically the same.  The cutouts are simply detail differences and have NO effect on the mechanism or its operation.   

George was wrong when he wrote it.  He hadn't even seen an annie or a version 4 chassis in person. He said six because he thought the Annie had a 7 pole motor which it does NOT!  if George had known the motor only had five poles he would have stayed with the 5 versions he lists.  When George wrote that part of his site he listed the 5 versions based on info he got from Dave Goodson, and Barry and others.  Please go back and reread what George wrote!!

You say people have been calling it Gen 6 for the past 10 years! .  What people?  Give us some documentation by showing us the names of the people you know who are saying this!!  

You seem to be the one creating the confusion by MIXING the detail changes and mechanical changes, while the rest of us are have been very clear with our definitions and have been willing to be specific about our sources without misquoting them.  

The definitions we use and the identification method I posted earlier are not arbitrary but in reality based on a wide ranging number of contributors research on the Bachmann 4-6-0 from the time it first came out in 1989.  That chart based on mechanicals has helped many identify what is inside the loco that can't be seen without taking the loco apart.  The original chart has been in use from before 2000 and gets modified when changes to the mechanical aspects of the 4-6-0's are put out by the company.  

I truly hope the Annie with the Version Six chassis with the metal gears turns out to be better than the Annie with the Version 5 chassis.


Scot, Again if you are going to use sources like Barry or George please be accurate and study what they have really said, and please document all the people you say have been calling the original Annie Gen 6

[scottychaos]

Scot , Give it up, you keep mixing detail changes up with mechanical changes.  Barry said they were mechanically the same.  The cutouts are simply detail differences and have NO effect on the mechanism or its operation.   

I understand that..but its also completely irrelevant..
my point was that motors and gears alone shouldnt be (and dont have to be) the only criteria
for designating generations..there is no rule stating this..except the one you made up.

it makes FAR more sense to call the Annie Gen 6, to differentiate it from the Gen 5.
Calling them both "Gen 5" is far more confusing..
This cant be denied..as I have already explained in great detail.

Scot