f-3 n gauge

[rustycoupler]

We need a new version of f-3 . With all these new models coming out like the gp-7 and new steam, wheres this engine? By the way we would need a powered and non powered for the well you know the speaker, because nobody makes a decent speaker for n yet, not a rant just sayin.

[Desertdweller]

Rusty,

Kato makes these units, in A&B versions, all powered.

They are nice, smooth runners.  I have two sets of them.  MSRP is $85/unit.

Les

[skipgear]

Kato and Intermountain both make better F3's and F7's right now. Intermountain and Model Power make FP7's. Lifelike fills in with FA1's and FA2's. IM makes FT an MicroTrains did them. Lets ask for something that isn't already done.

[brokemoto]

If it is four axle cab units under discussion, what is left?

Electro-Motive

FT-MT and IM

F-2-few prototypes, but no one has done it

F-3-Kato and IM

F-7-Kato, IM, LL, MP. TRIX

F-9- TRIX, Arnold, B-mann (all out of production).  IM has announced

ALCo

FA-1-LL

FA-2-Roco, LL, TRIX

Baldwin-

Sharks-  E-R, V-line shells

babyface-no one


FM-

Four axles-LL

B/A-1-A-RR long out of production-not B-B and really a passenger locomotive.


It appears that the only four axle freight cabs not done that are up to to-day's standards are the F-2 and Baldwin babyface.  You could throw in the FM B/A-1-A.  There are only three non C-C or A-1-A cabs not done in N.

[Desertdweller]

brokemoto,

There are a few others left:

ALCO:

Black Maria demonstrators: no one makes these.  Looked like little DL-109's.

FPA-4: Canadian model, but used in the USA. Not produced as N scale models, but maybe should be.

EMD: F-3 was produced by Con-Cor at one time.  I have a Con-Cor F-3B dummy.  Very strange trucks.

GE:

Demonstrator cab units used on Erie for evaluation, later sold to UP.  I don't think these had official model names.  They looked sort of like FA's, with small headlights and no nose grilles, car body side panels like those used on U-30CG's.  No one makes these, but would make an interesting kitbash.

Ingalls Shipbuilding:

Built a prototype sold to GM&O.  Had a body that looked a lot (to me) like the first run of KM hydralics sold to D&RGW and SP.  No one makes these either.

Of all of these, I think the only one that warrants production would be the FPA-4.  These were widely used by CN, and later were great power for shortlines.  Are used by Napa Wine Train; Grand Canyon Ry.; and others IIRC.  Also were used by VIA.

Les

[Paul Kremer]

What we need from the B'mann is a reliable, DCC-ready mechanism for all those Bachmann Plus and Spectrum F7 shells that have been extensively upgraded and detailed by lots of modeleres the past years. I have quite a few of them and they look great. They just run like crap, which is a pity. I'm sure an updated mechanism for the F7 will fill a void and will please lots of modelers around the world.

Paul,
Netherlands
(modeling the B&M in 1950's)

[rustycoupler]

 Exactly thats what i meant when i said that about the f-3 or f-7, i dont want to pay 95 dollars for one unit

[skipgear]

If it gets retooled and comes from Bachmann you probably will pay $95 for it. All new tooling coming from Bachmann in N scale is now coming with DCC on board and with each new loco, prices are going up. Retail on the newest release, the RS3 is $120.00. Good sale prices are in the $80-90 range. The lowest I have seen is $70 which is less than our shop has to pay for them. I still can't figure that one out.

[Desertdweller]

Those prices for DCC-equipped units sound reasonable to me.  But non-DCC units should be offered as well at a lower price.

There are a lot of us out here who do not use DCC.  Some of us already had large locomotive rosters before DCC was commonly used, making change-over impractically expensive.  Others simply like block control, with its ability to run any locomotive without modification.

Block control is simple and permanent.  Blocks can be controlled by either Atlas Selectors or DPDT switches from a place like Radio Shack.  While more wiring than for DCC is required, it is determined solely by the number of blocks you want.  On my railroad (and I suspect most others), wiring needed for remote-control switches exceeds that needed for block control.  You can even divide a block into electrically-isolated sections (like for parking locomotives) with simple on-off switches.

If I were to start all over again, had no existing locomotives or track, and did not intend to have many locomotives, I would certainly consider DCC.

Les

[skipgear]

All the Bachmann DCC loco's are dual mode and will run on DC also. It would cost them more to make two different light boards and different packaging for each model than to just include DCC on everything. There is no advantage for them to offer a DC version of the loco. The cost savings would only be about $10.

We just got the HO FA's in the shop, a DCC sound unit sells for $125, the DC / DCC ready version is $80. It's almost pointless there to offer the non sound version. For $40, who isn't going to consider sound?

[mhampton]

We just got the HO FA's in the shop, a DCC sound unit sells for $125, the DC / DCC ready version is $80. It's almost pointless there to offer the non sound version. For $40, who isn't going to consider sound?

For a cash-strapped operation for whom even $80 for a new locomotive will stretch the budget, $40 for unneeded or unwanted sound costs the dealer a potential customer.

[skipgear]

To be quite blunt, there aren't many loco's that aren't in the $80 and up price range any more. The only thing left under that price range are the $50 Bachmann trainset loco's which are dated and not worth the money they do get for them. They are fine for a first loco or to run around a Christmas tree but they don't hold a candle to the other equipment available.

I don't mean to be an elitest but model railroading costs money. If $40 is going to make or break you, then there are other things you should be worrying about rather than buying a locomotive. $40 is what I spent on Pizza last friday night for the family.

[mhampton]

So if I can't see paying $120 to get the $80 value I need, I should just get out of the hobby?  Sounds like you've been in the hobby for a number of years, perhaps near retirement age, and have a significant amount of disposable income.  If so, $40 may not seem significant.  For those of us that are not quite at that point (ranging from young teens to fairly recent empty-nesters) or are just struggling along in this lousy economy, if we want to enjoy this hobby, we have to watch where our money goes. 

[Desertdweller]

I would not want to say you couldn't find a decent N-scale locomotive for $40, but you probably couldn't find one at MSRP for that amount.

Regardless, you can get mighty nice N-scale passenger cars at that price.  Often you can find them at a great deal less.  $40 will still get you two top-shelf freight cars.

Forty bucks is forty bucks.  It will still get you a pile of scenery materials, or two remote-control turnouts, or half a tank of gas.

If it costs $10 more per unit to put DCC into them, raise the cost $10 over what a non-DCC should sell for.  On the theoretical $80 unit, a $40 bump is a 50% price increase.

$40 shouldn't "make us or break us".  But it can and should "make or break" a buying decision.

Les

[skipgear]

So if I can't see paying $120 to get the $80 value I need, I should just get out of the hobby?  Sounds like you've been in the hobby for a number of years, perhaps near retirement age, and have a significant amount of disposable income.  If so, $40 may not seem significant.  For those of us that are not quite at that point (ranging from young teens to fairly recent empty-nesters) or are just struggling along in this lousy economy, if we want to enjoy this hobby, we have to watch where our money goes.  

You shouldn't assume too much, I've been in the hobby for about 6 years. I got back in shortly after my now 7 year old son was born. I have a 3 week old daughter so I'm certainly not rolling in dough but I'm also realize that $40 is only a very small percentage of what it costs to put a model railroad together. If I don't spend it on a loco, I will spend it on scenery or somthing else down the road. This hobby is expensive, there is no way around that fact.

The 120 vs. 80 reference was to a new HO release showing the fact that DCC and sound has come down to the price difference that used to be just to get a DCC equipped loco. $125 for a sound equipped loco is incredible. I have N scale sound decoders that cost more than that and that doesn't include a loco to put them in. The least expensive option before that for an HO loco with DCC and sound was pushing the $200+ mark. I first find it interesting that the loco without DCC is $80 on sale for a non spectrum HO diesel yet the sound version is $125 on sale. Those are both items breaking ground. Prior to this, most standard line HO loco's were in the 50-60 mark, with DCC (no sound).

I work at a shop where we keep a few of the "trainset" loco's on hand for the person that only considers price.  That is only time they sell, when money is the only consideration, "I have $40 to spend, what can I get?", type of person. Most people are concerned about quality, detail and fedelity of the loco (in that order). They are willing to pay more to get a better loco and if it comes with DCC included at the same price, it's just a bonus to them.

Back to what started this....

Current new N scale releases seem to be aiming for the $100-120 retail price point w/DCC. I doubt there are going to be any new releases in that $50 retail segment any more. Those loco just aren't selling. DCC is here to stay. I remember seeing a quote from somebody at Bachmann a few years back that all newly tooled N scale releases would be coming with DCC included. This years batch of announcements seems to back that up. If you want a new F unit from Bachmann, expect it to follow this trend and be around $120 retail and come with DCC installed. That will put the street price right at the same price range as the Intermountain and Kato offerings which at this point, run better.