Modeling the prototype of a freelance locomotive

[ryeguyisme]

Installed the cylinders onto the mechanism so it's there permanently, then went to work adding on the driver and valve gear on one side.

I gotta say after getting past the hard part I'm really pumped about this project and my determination has resurfaced

[J3a-614]

Rye,

I have to say it's looking pretty good.  My first thoughts on the use of the Russian decapod was to wonder if the axle spacing would come out right, and also wondered whether its tall, rear-projecting motor would fit in the boiler casting; you got positive answers to both questions.  I'm also looking at the Reading main rods you used, and I think they look darn close to what Allen did.  I have to think that either Allen used Varney Reading rods (which would make sense, having these engines handy and considering that the "prototype" would need a massive rod to transmit power), or that Varney used the same part for both engines--or that both statements are true!

Some questions to think about (or at least, some I would think about):

How do you plan to use the engine?  Will it be a display item, a "fantrip" engine, or will you attempt to recreate a small part of the G&D?

If you are to recreate a small part of the G&D, will it be some portion of Allen's road as built, or will it be some "unmodeled" portion? 

What do you plan to run with it?  My choice would be a mixture of modern cars--and some vintage kits, too, like the Silver Streak cars.  In fact, about 1950 or so, Silver Streak had a modeling contest utilizing their cars, in which Allen entered (and won one of the prizes, of course).  Allen's choice was a PFE reefer with his usual weathering job, part of which included some unweathered boards representing a partial wood siding replacement, and cleaned off numbers and reporting marks (something yard clerks used to do so they could read these for their reports).  I'll have to check the slides on the G&D site to see if the car shows up "in service." 

Finally, I have to wonder if the 34 would have ever had any "sisters" on the roster, and I wonder also what the engine would have looked like in an earlier time (say, "as delivered" in the 1920s), or as a freshly shopped engine.

Finally, do you plan to recreate any other G&D locomotives?

I've assembled a few Bowser and Mantua engines myself, and can appreciate that such a model can be tuned to suit you without worrying about messing up a factory mechanism or paint job (or not having to go through the trouble of stripping the engine for redetailing and painting), along with the robust construction of these old kits.  Properly cared for, they should last almost forever; Allen himself had ancient models at the end that ran as well as anything available at the time, including the ten-wheeler and the homemade 34. 

Keep it up, and let us know what the old heads at your club think when you show up with the finished project!

[pdlethbridge]

Is the stroke the same?

[ryeguyisme]

I intend to run the engine so much as I please and as far as recreating stuff I might recreate his second layout or third but that depends. Locomotives: I have all the MDC replica locomotives: the shay and the 2 0-6-0's So I guess you could say I recreated something but I do plan to recreate some if not all the locomotives. I've done quite an extensive study on them.

As far as the mechanism is concerned, I'm trying to tweeak it and work out the binds and so far it has a problem running in reverse, where it clicks somewhere and after about a dozen cycles, the drive wheels will lock up. So I'm kinda stumped on that Trying to figure out what it could be.

Any hints or suggestions would be appreciated 

[pdlethbridge]

That is why I asked about the stroke. It could be the piston coming out of the cylinder at the end of its stroke. A plastic ring at the cylinder could extend the travel of the piston

[ryeguyisme]

I doubt it's the pistons and the main rod thats causing it, I did have to tighten a screw on one the the main driving rods, but didn't solve the problem right away. I think it may be coming from the valve gear but I'm not so sure

[J3a-614]

Rye,

You probably already know this, but. . .

That bit about the clicking sound suggests a possible bent or misaligned power pick-up.  With a plastic frame, Bachmann uses a pair of pressed copper or similar material sheets, located under the bottom retaining plate, and hooked up to the engine's electronics.  These pickups are small so as to be almost invisible from normal viewing angles, and give driver pick-up from both sides of the engine (as opposed to the single side with a metal frame and tender return in classic models), and as a result are quite delicate and easy to bend.  In such a state, they can hang up on driver spokes.  You've been really working on your engine from necessity, and it's possible this may be the problem.  In any event, based on your description, that would be the first thing I would check, bending the parts carefully back to proper position if needed.

If that were not the case, I would then start checking the valve gear and other parts as you suggested.  A classic way the old-timers would check for rod and valve gear bind would be to take the motor and gears out of the engine, and replace everything else, and just push the light mechanism, with cylinders and all motion work, on a piece of track.  Free movement, with no hangups, was the goal, as they looked for tight spots and binds, relying on feel as much as sight, and fixing by trial and error.  Supposedly the really fastidious took this a step further, rolling the mechanism on a piece of glass (slipperier than track).  I haven't seen a Bachmann decapod mechanism apart before (none of the roads I model used them), but it may be intimidating with its enclosed gearboxes and belt drives.  As you already know, the secret is to take note of what you do and be patient.  I've had my 2-8-0 and 2-6-6-2 apart, they are a little frightening the first time (and always very fiddly), but someone had to put them together in the first place, so you can take them apart and put them back together again.  Just watch what you do (don't drop anything on the floor, you may never find it!), have good light available and a comfortable working space (a high-level desk, like a watchmaker's bench, is ideal), an engine cradle is handy (Bowser and others sell them in foam; a plastic liner, such as from a lunch or freezer bag keeps oil and snags out of the foam) and take your time.

Finally, there may be split gear problems, based on the comments others have had about other locomotives, most notably Life-Like diesels and Bachmann's Climax.  Nothing to do there but change out the gear, more likely the whole driver set unless you can quarter drivers.  Perhaps other readers who own these engines can comment on this.

You are pretty good, certainly far better than me at your age (and in some ways better than me now). . .you very likely know all this and more. . .after all, you're recreating the 34 and possibly others. . .and that's something I wouldn't have even thought of trying!

Good luck!

[ryeguyisme]

I am still stumped, to the point where I might have my father give a look into it....


It runs fine going forward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqqkfiq-XQ

But backwards, it'll freeze:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeWrGLxVufM


so until I can work out the bug I'm dead in the water.



I grew up taking things apart and putting them back together like recently I bought a lot of locomotives in an ebay lot and amongst them was a GS-4 Daylight with no motor in it and since I plan to resell this stuff I found out that I had a nice running replacement motor that goes right with it I like to look at the GS-4's in 4 stages
First Stage:
Crappy Pancake Motor
Second Stage:
White encased motor(which with fine tuning and TLC will run nicely to my surprise)
Third Stage: Bachmann Plus
Can motor
Final:
The DCC engine they have now

I bought my spectrum 2-6-6-2 w/sound for $150 at my local hobby shop, the catch? Mechanical problems. Upon taking a good look at the structure of components, I just dicovered that there was just a screw missing and a cylinder misaligned, and after a quick fix ran the whole 20 hours(combined) on my christmas layout at the local park downtown, and still runs to this day (of course with some maintenance) and it will be running tonight as the main thru-freight at our club layout in Canton CT at the museum.




Well to put it lightly I spent my early teens years as more of a loner, just surviving high school alone and coming home to my imagination everyday. I wasn't what you called a real popular kid in school in my early high school years but that changed after time went on.

The key factor is a disease/gift I have called asperger's syndrome, which in this case it varies among a lot of people, and the key thing we have is 'comfort zones', mine just happens to be building whatever I want from the blueprint in my mind. I'll sometimes draw things out, but most of the work is done mentally in my head which amazes my dad and confused my math teachers at the same time.

I've been put in charge of maintenance of the steam locomotives at our club due to the fact that I can fix them up and refurbish them back to life again. I've repaired some of the guys' home brought locomotives like a 2-8-0 with sound had the coupler plug disconnected, so then I went and hard wired it directly.

[J3a-614]

Rye,

I was watching your videos, and this doesn't act like anything I can recall seeing.  I do agree with you, it's not something like a short piston rod that pops out of the cylinder block and then misses the hole as it heads back in--that would give a much more sudden stop than what we are seeing here, and it would likely be in both directions.  Instead, this bind develops relatively gradually, as if a screw somewhere is rotating as a part turns underneath its head, pulling the screw tighter.  If that is the case, then the mechanism will also be at least initially tight as you put it into forward again, possibly to the point that it would not start at all after this.  You don't mention that happening, though, so I assume it is still something else, or at least might be happening in a place that's not obvious.

I did have a Bowser K-11 do something like this, and it was due to a main crank pin that was a bit stubborn about wanting to work loose.  This engine used an eccentric crank that was like the prototype in that it was tightened onto the main crank pin with a "pinch" fit, like a clamp (with a very tiny tightening screw across the bottom of the eccentric itself), and was held in place by friction.  It was a devil of a time getting the main crank pins in tight, as they were entirely circular--no screw slots or hex heads, I was using a set of pliers and trying not to mar the bearing surface (later I was told a better tool would have been a pin vise).  The normal rotating friction from the rods and the resistance from the valve gear would eventually cause the crank pin on one side to gradually unscrew itself, with interesting results as valve gear got out of time, and it got even more interesting on the times when the whole pin came out and the main rod and valve gear started digging into the ballast.  Talk about a jackrabbit jump!

What you are talking about doing (having your dad look at it) may be the best thing, if for no other reason in that sometimes a brain needs a rest to stop and come to an answer.  Sleeping on a problem sometimes really does work!  If he can't get to it or find what's wrong, I would start by taking the motor and gearbox out and pushing the mechanism by hand, as suggested by the old-timers mentioned earlier.  If nothing else, you will at least find out if your rods and valve gear run freely.  If that turns out to be the case, then the problem may be in the motor and/or gearbox and belt drive.

Out of curiosity, did you get to test the original decapod in reverse before you started the work?

Take care, let us know what transpires.

[Guilford Guy]

Try disassembling and reassembling the worm gear housing. I know many Mantua locomotives had problems with the worm gear in which they ran fine forwards but developed problems running backwards. I don't remember the specifics of the Mantua problem but it's possible your loco may have developed a similar problem.

[ryeguyisme]

hmmmm that might be entirely possible, I guess I'll give a good look to see if that might be it, because I run the chassis motorless anyways and it'll work fine, so it just might be the belt drive....

And it's definitely not a piston rod doing it, because the bottom ones are definitely in there and the top ones move but they aren't going anywhere.

I'll give it to my dad first and see what he thinks and then I'll look at the motor assembly, I mean it did run perfectly fine before modification so It's gotta be something

[J3a-614]

Dear Rye;

Haven't heard anything in a little while; anything to report?

[pdlethbridge]

it ran fine before the modification, then it must be the modification that's causing it.       On locos like bowser, mantua, etc, care must be given when screwing in the side rods to make sure there is no binding. Then attach one side valve gear and test that. then the other side, That should make it easier to eliminate problems. Sometimes bowser gears are not perfectly round and they cause a bind every revolution, giving a slight adjustment might be all it needs like a shim under the front of the motor.

[RAM]

Have you tried running it without the rods between the fourth and fifth driver. 

[ryeguyisme]

hmmm I will take those thoughts into consideration, my apologies as my youthful tendencies have delayed my efforts some