N scale in the open

[beans6645]

G'day, I am hoping to get some information from  fellow 'N scalers' with regards to building in the great out doors.
I have a good size outside area that I wish to develop as a garden with a model railway.
My only contstaints are 
A/ I wish to use N Scale ( I know it's tiny for the outside).
B/ I wish to concentrate on the New York and Central line and predominately Steam Locos.
C/ I am unsure at this time as to what control system I should incorporate in the planning
D/ I plan an out and back layout so I can run some long sets with the obvious yards etc.
If anybody can help with any insight, ideas views or real experience in N Scaling out of doors I would be most grateful.
The location for this project is The Entrance, New South Wales, Australia which is situated about 50 miles north of Sydney so the climate is temperate (no snow, mild to cold winters warm to very hot summers).
Once again thanks for your thoughts

[Hunt]

N scale outside – forget it… Track and equipment will not last. Even with the entire layout overhead covered (track and equipment must be shaded from all sun), you will be spending most of your time track cleaning and equipment maintenance. Try it, it takes very little wind to derail N-scale stuff.

Start thinking O scale or larger. If you have the space focus on large-scale that is made for outside use.

[Jim Banner]

Interesting thought.  I have seen H0 used outdoors.  N-scale is not that much smaller.  Some suggestions if you want to try it:

Start off small the first year.  Limit yourself to perhaps a 2' x 8' area.  This will give you a chance to try things out and see what works or does not work without a large investment.

Dirt, leaves, blades of grass etc. are more of a problem at ground level than they are even one foot up.  In N-scale, you might want to keep everthing on a table or shelf 2 to 3 feet off the ground.  I have some of my large scale hung on the side of a fence, and this has worked well.  I have even added a backdrop in places and intend to add more.  This could be the solution to wind problems.

I assume that you would take your locomotives and rolling stock inside when you are not running it.  Plastic buildings will stand up sunlight if you paint them properly - I use Floquil either as a finish coat or as a primer and it works for me.  If I were using small scale buildings outdoors, I would consider painting the insides of the windows dark grey or black, then filling the buildings with concrete to keep them from blowing around.

Track may be a problem outdoors.  The rails should be okay, but I doubt there are any N-scale tracks made with ultra-violet resistant plastic ties.  However, a coat of black paint sprayed on will take care of that.  Just remember to wipe the rail heads before the paint dries, then give them a good cleaning before the first use.   If you want "concrete" ties, spray the ties black, then spray them grey.  You will want to leave your track joints unsoldered to allow for expansion and contraction, and will then need feeders to every section of track.

For the first year, just run the trains on dc, unless you already have fancier equipment that you already use in the house.  No use making a larger investment until you see if it works.

I think a lot of readers would be very interested in hearing about your experiences if you do try N-scale outdoors.  I don't know how much testing you can still get done this fall, but by next fall I expect you will have lots of answers and advice to give us.  I for one will be watching for a full report about a year from now.

[ben_not_benny]

My suggestion is no, because anything bigger than a pine needle will cause trouble for N scale equipment.

[brokemoto]

I must agree with Jim Banner:  try it, but start with something manageable to which you can add if you dicvoer that it is workable.

You will need to keep the track covered when not in use.  N scale track exposed to the elements will get much more dirty much faster.  You mentioned that you want to run NYCS steam.  N scale Steam is very finicky when it comes to clean or dirty track.

You would have to surround the track with backdrop to shield it from the wind, as wind will blow your boxcars and passenger cars off the track.

I would agree with raising it off the ground as rain will cause water to acumulate on the ground and corrode your track if it is on the ground.

I can see why you might want to consider this, let us know how you do.

[James in FL]

Mind the fact that N Scale was not designed, intended, recommended, or warranted to be used outdoors.
The lack of UV inhibitors added to the molded plastics is but one of many obstacles that will need to be overcome.
The frequency and intensity of maintenance, of your motive power alone, may well outweigh the enjoyment of the actual run time.

Good Luck.

[chartsmalm]

It is too early to respond to all of the "no" reasons that you have already seen, but I can give a little of my 18 months outdoors with N Scale.

First, I cannot comment about the affects of UV, pine needles and all of the other ground level obstacles because mine is table top on a covered, BUT NOT ENCLOSED, patio.

Beyond that caveat, my experience has been quite normal.  I am in Southern California about 15 miles from the coast.  I shall itemize the things that I have noted - particularly as they relate to negative comments.  I might add most of the negative commentators have never tried it outside, so how do they know?  They are making assumptions based upon a logical application of some things that they know.

>I painted every wood structural piece to deter warping.  I used furniture grade PVC where ever it was suitable instead of wood.

>I first cleaned the rail, after installation, very vigorously with one of the track erasers that you get at the LHS.  Then I run my Aztec rail cleaning car around the layout about once a month.  Before I do this, I blow off the road be with the hose from my air brush compressor. After a Santa Ana wind storm, I usually do the blow off as a precaution.

>My rail has been exposed to all of our temperature and humidity changes for about 15 months.  I use flex track with soldered joints.  I experienced no effects from rail expansion/contraction.  This is often a subject for the indoor guys when discussing room temperatures.  I anticipated that I might have to accommodate it in some way.  But, I took a wait and see approach.  Nothing!

>I arrange for covering my powered rolling stock at night.  In your case I would suggest that you build a train shed section and/or roundhouse.  The possible affects of the elements on the sensitive areas of the motors is a matter to be concerned about.

>I leave my other rolling stock out for exposure to the elements.  I've read a lot in the forums about how to weather cars and buildings.  I'm letting God weather mine!

There's probably more and as I think of them I will send you a private message.  In fact, since we appear to be like bastard sons at a family reunion, we probably ought to arrange for periodic status checks with each other.  Let me know and we can put our e-mail addresses in our books.

Don Malm

[Hunt]

I might add most of the negative commentators have never tried it outside, so how do they know?  They are making assumptions based upon a logical application of some things that they know.
Don Malm

Don, I have tested several brands and gauges of track outside (not covered) including N.

Don, beans6645 will only experience similar results to yours if he creates the same environment. For starters, beans6645 tell Don what you mean by hot summer in Australia. Also Don note what beans6645 wrote,

… building in the great out doors.
I have a good size outside area that I wish to develop as a garden with a model railway.

Garden with model railway does not bring covered patio to my mind. 

[Jim Banner]

Beans and Don, I hope you will keep posting your experiences here.  Inquiring minds would like to know how you make out.

Twenty years ago, I was told that you could not do outdoor railroading in Saskatchewan.  The 90 degree range of temperature (about 160 degrees Farenheit) would buckle the tracks, frost heave would require releveling the tracks every year, and so on.  But for 20 years, I have been enjoying my large scale garden railway anyway.   I have repeatedly been told that plastic buildings cannot possibly stand up to the rigors of outdoor railroading and wood is the only material to use for scratch building.  I just keep on smiling as I watch my ten year old scratch built styrene buildings reemerge from the snow, knowing I won't have to repaint them because paint doesn't blister off plastic like it does off wood.  Fifteen years ago I was told DCC couldn't work in the garden because you couldn't keep the tracks clean enough.  But I tried it anyway, and found I liked it.  I am still being told that aluminum rail is no good for track power, even though I have been using it successfully outdoors and indoors for a decade and a half.  This is where I am coming from when I suggest to beans6645 that if he wants to try N-scale outdoors, then go ahead and try it.  I am sure there will be problems.  But half the fun of modelling outdoors is solving the problems, just like the 12 inch to the foot guys have to do.   

[Alex V.]

Try On30; but I don't think NYC had any 30" gauge trackage.

[GlennW]

Modeling 1st generation diesels may be enough. Nscale has a good mix of EMD, Alco, GE, FM power. There are some gaps, but you could assemble a good fleet from Atlas, Kato LifeLike, Model Power, Bachmann locos. Cab units like EMD E's, F's Alco PA's FA's are the best pullers. You can find plenty of EMD GP-SD Alco RS GE Uboats roadswitchers. Missing are some yard switchers.

Steam in N has been troublesome. Some newer models like the Athearn Challenger raise the bar for Nscale steam. The MDC/Athearn steamers are very nice. Most of the rest is a try it before you buy it. Be sure to get a model that works before you get it out of the store.

For running outdoors, I'd have mostly diesels (EMD-Alco) with a few steamers.

[chartsmalm]

To Jim Banner:

Since I am 77 years old, I probably won't have the opportunity to give a twenty year report, as you just did.  But, it was sure encouraging to read yours.  I'm so tired of all of the negative outbursts at forums and the LHS's, I just do not mention the outdoors aspect of my layouts anymore.  As I progress, I am writing chapters,and collecting photos, to a little treatise - "Birth of a Layout".  It will be a web story.  After reading your post, I am encouraged that when I finish the story I will be spreading the word of successful outdoors model railroading.

I'm sure that there will be feedback to me saying that "G was designed for out of doors - N wasn't". My answer to that is that the elements are not concerned about the size of things when they let loose with their natural attacks.  They are going to happen.  So, be prepared and go forth!

To me it is amazing that you had the courage to go forward in your environment of a 90 degree temperature swing.  The negatives that you heard must have been thunderous.  Of course, both of our nations have grown and prospered because people did things that "they should never do".  The pioneering urge just never dies. It crops up in the most unusual ways and places.

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

[jwoj69]

FROM EXPIRIENCE WITH N AND G ( DESIGN FOR OUTDOORS) WEATHER, HUMID ETC WILL DESTROY YOUR EQUIPMENT. YOU CAN TRY ENCLOUSE WITH ENVIROMENT CONTROL ( AC HEATER ETC), BUT IT WILL BE COSTLY MUCH MORE THAN JUST GOING G SCALE AND BRASS TRACK... JACK

[dougdodd]

I also have N scale on a patio table. Here in Northern California winters are a little more severe then down south but I have had little trouble. The biggest problem is dust from nearby construction. Care must be given to the type of track used as some will corrode very quickly and be almost impossible to clean. Also don't put in any tunnels unless you have a way to clean inside them.
Most rolling stock will not stand up to sitting in direct sunlight as the plastic quickly softens and warps into unrecognizeable shapes. And please don't ask how I know!
I still prefer my G gauge in the garden.

Happy RailRoading
Doug

[SWARTWOUT]

Forget it  unless your layout will be housed in a fully weatherproof greenhouse.  The slightest breeze will blow the cars off the track and it will be impossible to keep the track clean enough from general atmospheric dust & dirt, dirt splatter, etc.

I've worked with N-scale in my house for 15 years and know of what I speak.