Tsunami or Quasinami?

[Steve Stockham]

  Since the new 3-truck Shay has hit the retailers there has been some questions about the DCC compatible digital sound system "with Tsunami technology." Specifically, is this system a "special OEM system made specifically for Bachmann" and is not a true Tsunami system with all of the functions of the Tsunami that is installed in the H0 models?
  If this is so (and from what I am understanding from various threads, this is) then is this merely a "stop-gap" measure until the "true" Tsunami system is developed for large scale use or is this what we have to look forward to in future Spectrum models?
  The reason I ask this is that this system (for reference's sake and to distinguish it from the H0 Tsunami system I will call it the "Quasinami") doesn't seem to have any external triggers. I use r/c battery my units and my personal choice, RCS systems, doesn't seem to be compatible with this sound board! If I can't use this "Quasinami" system with RCS then it is worse than useless to me as I will have to spend extra $$$ just to have it torn out!
  Further, the "Quasinami" apparently can't be sold separately so there is going to be some concern if there are problems electronically with the system. I mention this because Curmudgeon has already found a problem with the wiring not being secure and has posted an "authorized" fix! If I had problems with the sound system what should I do? I have read that people have called Bachmann and Bachmann has replied that they need to call Soundtraxx and when they call Soundtraxx they are told that they need to go through Bachmann as this is a Bachmann deal..... What can be done if there's a problem? Unfortunately, calling the service dept. doesn't seem to be the answer.
  A lot of this resistance to DCC stems from the fact that what we are seeing is raising more questions than answers! It would seem from the full page ad in the latest Garden Railways that Bachmann is committed to DCC in large scale and a partnership with Soundtraxx in particular. There are definite concerns that I and many large scalers have about this new system before we will spend our money on it.
  I am especially concerned that certain people have mentioned that Soundtraxx's Sierra sound system is "old technology on it's last legs." If true, Tsunami would seem to be my only option if I want to stay with Soundtraxx so you see my dilemna. (I, of course, can go with Phoenix but then we get into the $$$ issue and if I have to pay extra $$$ for a "Quasinami" only to have it ripped out so I can add a Phoenix so my r/c system will work properly....
  I'm not trying to cause trouble or a flame war but I and others on the largescale websites have some legitimate concerns about this new system and I was hoping to get a clarification if possible. Thanks!

[Matthew (OV)]

I thought we did this already .... but just in case not:

1.)  Sierra is not "on its last legs" and "dead end technology."  People who claim to be in the know, and say such things, are not.  Sierra in its current form will likely give way to something more advanced, much in the same way that the Phoenix 97 gave way to the 2K2 (and now the P5) .... so in that sense, it may be becoming obsolete IN ITS CURRENT FORM, but the concept is here to stay, and will have more sounds, and more features coming, as Soundtraxx is well aware that there's more to life than DCC, particularly in large scale.  I have this from a Vice President and part owner of the company, who was somewhat dismayed to hear that people claiming to know their intentions and directions would broadcast information so contrary to their actual thinking.

Is that direct enough?

2.)  As to the misunderstanding that generates the "Call Bachmann....no, call Soundtraxx....no, call Bachmann" nightmare, in the same conversation with the same individual, it's being worked on.  I'm not sure what the solution will be (meaning who you'll need to call) but one way or the other, someone will provide support depending on what they work out.

3.) If you really want Tsunami, Soundtraxx is planning to release one that will handle higher current, with the idea that it will work in a large scale locomotive.  It's not here yet, and it's not the one that's in the 55 Ton Shay... but if you really want one, you'll be able to have one.  The important point is you don't HAVE to have one..... if what you want is Sierra, it WILL be available to you.

Personally, if I wanted Westside, a bottle of red paint and a sheet of decals are a lot cheaper than the Quasinami..... and the Black Undec is available without it.

This thread is about recently broadcast information regarding Soundtraxx and the longevity of the Sierra sound system line.  The holy war for control methods is just a couple of clicks up the list; if what I've said makes you feel you have to stick up for your favorite control method, please do so there.  All I'm trying to do here is publish the answer I got when I asked Steve's questions of a reliably important person at Soundtraxx, who I called with the intention of finding out whether some of the stuff floating around on this, and other forums, was in fact accurate.

Matthew (OV)

[Steve Stockham]

Thanks for the info from Soundtraxx Matt! I appreciate the time and effort you took to answer my questions. This rush to DCC seems to be the impetus for the "Quasinami" being installed rather than waiting for a "real" Tsunami. The unavailability of external triggers is disappointing (at least for those of us with r/c battery.) Hopefully, when the K-27 arrives, Bachmann and Soundtraxx will have a fully realized Tsunami unit for it. While I am an ardent r/c battery fan, I also appreciate where this technology is leading and I can empathize with the excitement at the potential of this new sound and control technology!

[Jim Banner]

I think a mechanically synchronized (triggered) chuff is highly desirable no matter how we power our trains.  To me, nothing shatters the illusion as quickly as a motionless locomotive chuffing away.   I am glad the Sierra will be with us for some time to come.

[StanAmes]

I am especially concerned that certain people have mentioned that Soundtraxx's Sierra sound system is "old technology on it's last legs." If true, Tsunami would seem to be my only option if I want to stay with Soundtraxx so you see my dilemna. (I, of course, can go with Phoenix but then we get into the $$$ issue and if I have to pay extra $$$ for a "Quasinami" only to have it ripped out so I can add a Phoenix so my r/c system will work properly.... embarrassed
  I'm not trying to cause trouble or a flame war but I and others on the largescale websites have some legitimate concerns about this new system and I was hoping to get a clarification if possible. Thanks!

Steve/ Matthew

It is clear the some have misinterpreted the intent of my message on another forum.  I deeply apologize for any confusion generated. I never meant to ever imply that Soundtraxx would ever discontinue its Sierra line of products. Its a great product line.  I should note that the Sierra is the sound unit of choice on my railroad and I am currently in the process of installing two more units.

There are however issues with the Sierra including the need to use an external voltage regulator and opto isolators in order to use Sierra with many Radio and DCC units.  There are also a growing number of other great sound units in the market or announced by others. The new technology in the microcontroller market allow products to be much smaller, have many more features and cost less.  My only point was that the Sierra product needs a facelift.   I am very confident that the Sierra line will continue and we can expect great things in the future from Soundtraxx

As for the Bachmann Sound on Board decoder based on Tsumani technology, it is clear that this product is not designed in its current form to support the radio control market. There are no external triggers for the sound functions, nor ability to independently control the whistle or bell in DC mode.  I would expect however that just as there are users that do not want this DCC decoder there are others that would love to add one to their 2 truck shay.  If you want a model now that only comes with a Sound on Board decoder, its takes only a few minutes to remove the decoder and I am sure you can sell it on Ebay.

We in the Large Scale community are fortunate that we have so many excellent forms of control that we can choose from.  No system is best for all users.  Hopefully in the future the model manufacturers can do more to make it easy for us to use the control system of choice and the control market make it easier to transition between these various control systems.

Stan Ames

[rperego]

Matthew - what do you mean by "If you really want Tsunami, Soundtraxx is planning to release one that will handle higher current, with the idea that it will work in a large scale locomotive?"

I have Tsunamis installed in 3 Bachmann locos and they work just fine.

[Curmudgeon]

"There are however issues with the Sierra including the need to use an external voltage regulator and opto isolators in order to use Sierra with many Radio and DCC units.  There are also a growing number of other great sound units in the market or announced by others. The new technology in the microcontroller market allow products to be much smaller, have many more features and cost less.  My only point was that the Sierra product needs a facelift.   I am very confident that the Sierra line will continue and we can expect great things in the future from Soundtraxx"

Actually, if you use their battery and can live without idle sounds, no interface at all needed with "most" r/c systems.
Any manufacturer who makes a sound system for the large-scale market that caters only to dcc is shooting themselves in both big toes.

Bob-
The Tsunamis you use are for smaller scales, and are full-function, albeit lower current handling ability.
The "quasi"namis, (look up "quasi" in the dictionary) are limited functionality, altho some rabid dcc promoters will tell you that makes no difference.
There is no external chuff input available.
By pubished reports, it handles 3.5A max.

It does appear the reason for this "based upon Tsunami technology" is so Soundtraxx can release their own full L-S capable "Tsunami" later.
I do hope they communicate with someone outside their hallowed halls prior to design lock and figure out 3.5A max is not quite going to cut it in one segment of the LS market.

[rperego]

Forget my question - I forgot I'm using a separate decoder for motive.

[Matthew (OV)]

As for the Bachmann Sound on Board decoder based on Tsumani technology, it is clear that this product is not designed in its current form to support the radio control market. There are no external triggers for the sound functions, nor ability to independently control the whistle or bell in DC mode.  I would expect however that just as there are users that do not want this DCC decoder there are others that would love to add one to their 2 truck shay.  If you want a model now that only comes with a Sound on Board decoder, its takes only a few minutes to remove the decoder and I am sure you can sell it on Ebay.

Stan,

First, let me take a moment to thank you very little for completely disregarding my request to leave your crusade against anything that's not DCC out of this thread, and finding it necessary to once again take a pot shot at radio control.  It is abundantly clear to me what your opinion is of anything that isn't DCC, and I'm reasonably certain I know why .... as is anyone else who's read your multiple posts on the subject. 

The new decoder is not simply a problem to those using radio control, as you very well know.  It's also a problem to those of us who still use track power (or, even Bachmann's EZ-DCC,) as even turning the volume up or down requires several hundred dollars worth of equipment purchase, or a trip to a railroad equipped with DCC to make the adjustment.... or several such trips, as things in need of changing are discovered on the home road. The lack of a mechanical chuff input is a problem for users of ALL types of power, as it is impossible to achieve the same degree of synchronization of sound with the mechanism of the locomotive without it. 

My layout is primarily track powered.  I have a battery powered locomotive, and would like to have more of them ... but as it stands now, the majority of my fleet is track powered, not Battery/Radio, and this has been as important an issue to me as it has been to the Battery/Radio guys, because of the lack of external controls, and programmability. 

So, once again, and listen this time, THIS IS NOT ABOUT R/C BATTERY VERSUS DCC.  This is about clarifying a misunderstanding YOU started (and yes, two months later, I notice your explanation of this above) about Sierra, which, incidentally DOES work quite well for RC/Battery and Track Power users.  The new "quasainami" system ONLY works beyond basic sound production for those equipped with a full DCC system with programming capabilities.  For those of you out there who have such systems, and enjoy the new system, bully for you!  The rest of us are, as you point out, now relegated to spending an extra $100.00 for a module we can't use, and then cutting it out and attempting to sell it on E-Bay, where the purchaser will experience all of the above mentioned issues, have no chuff synchronization, and also have no warranty, and no hope of service intervention in the event of a current overload and failure, which "new math" notwithstanding, seems to be a very real possibility, given the power demands of some locomotives and the railroads on which they run.

Not attractive. 

Now.... as I said in my original post, THIS discussion is supposed to be about the continued viability of the Sierra product line.  If you wish to continue to cast aspersions on those of us who don't use DCC please take it to one of your other threads on the topic, or start a new one, so that I don't have to read it.  I'm spending all of my backward, anachronistic, un-hip, not with the times, technology fearing model railroad energy on my out of date track powered and radio controlled equipment.

Hopefully, since my attempt to be nice about this failed the first time, this will be a bit more clear.

Matthew (OV)

[Curmudgeon]

Stanley:
"  If you want a model now that only comes with a Sound on Board decoder, its takes only a few minutes to remove the decoder and I am sure you can sell it on Ebay."
Precisely an option I posted when these came out.
But, I am not interested in A) paying a hundred bucks more for a Westside Shay just to rip something out, and B) I am no interested in forming an evilbay account just to part with it.

While incoming voltage regulation on Sierras is desirable, opto-isolating is only necessary for idle sounds.
A WHOLE lot cheaper than buying a $70-$80 computer program and interface in order to change anything on another system.....and they all seem to come programmed for dcc, including a dcc shutdown that you have to FIND and KILL, or 30 seconds or so of "on" and it shuts down and WILL NOT COME BACK ON.

Now I read elsewhere that you need "spider-web" wiring for proper signal transmittal, and you know what?
It went from the "too freaking hard" basket to the circular file.

You want to push dcc for outdoors, fine, I can't stop you.
Wouldn't even want to try.

But, I'm going to be right behind you, with radio/battery.
We are just finishing up an ops session in the POURING rain, and we are all commenting on the absolte inability we would have to try to keep the wheels, track and PICKUPS clean enough to operate in this, with ballast being kicked up, mud from shoes on the step over areas on the railheads.

This has got to be a bad dream.

Yet, we ran FLAWLESSLY all night, except it's 36 degrees and pouring rain.

Sierras work fine, are not at "end of life" (from the VP at Soundtraxx, I might add), work fine without any of the stuff listed if you so desire (like, leave the battery in and no traction battery feed) and give up idle sounds unless some systems have optos on the inputs.

This must be the dcc "New Frontier", and it does appear to be an attempted invasion.  (ah, Massachusetts, JFK....."New Frontiers".......)
Well, invade away.
Don't be surpised if you get some small resistance.

Some places in more temperate climes, folks have good success.
But, using Stainless track in not an option for some.
Cost, and tractive effort.
You have any idea what tonnage I could haul with slippery, shiny track versus old, rough aluminum?

TOC

[Jim Banner]

Seeing this is a Soundtraxx Sierra thread, maybe Mathew (0V) will let me talk about my experiences with Sierra.

In track powered dc steam locomotives, the wiring is simple and you can have the all important synchronized cuff.  But whistle/horn operation is awkward - you have to change speed to blow the whistle.  And then the best you can do is blow for a crossing.  I seem to remember that if you left the throttle up a little bit, you could have an idle sound on diesels without the locomotive moving and without the sound system automatically shutting down.  Biggest problem I found is that you have to run locomotives, particularly geared locomotives, unrealistically fast to keep the battery charged, otherwise run time is limited to an hour or so.

With battery r/c, you have much the same advantages and disadvantages, except the whistle/horn and bell can be operated by push buttons.  This is particularly nice with the whistle/horn because you can blow any pattern you like.  However, for reasons I don't understand, you lose the idle sound on diesels.  Perhaps the minimum motor pulse width is wide enough to move the locomotive and the only thing below that is no pulse, so the decoder shuts down. 

With DCC, you have constant track voltage that lets you charge the Sierra battery, giving an unlimited run time (very important to me, maybe not so important to you.)  And you can apply a small enough pulse to the motor to keep a diesel sound system idling indeffinitely, or at least until the hydro company decides to have a power outage.  And like the battery r/c setup, you have the option of operating the horn/whistle and bell with push buttons.  The downside is that the Sierra's "motor inputs" must be isolated from the decoders "motor outputs" if you want to use track powered battery charging.

And one big plus for the Sierra is that programming controls are built right in, so you or your installer can program it the way you like it, independent of your power source.

[Matthew (OV)]

Seeing this is a Soundtraxx Sierra thread, maybe Mathew (0V) will let me talk about my experiences with Sierra.

Certainly.  That's what we're talking about here.  Actually it sounds like you've discovered how well Sierra works even in its current iteration, with the control system of your choice.  I bet it's nice to have direct control of things like the whistle, and a charged sound battery at any speed.... which is something I've said about my radio controlled locomotive as well.  Tell you what.  You clean your track, I'll charge my batteries, and we'll both run, and maybe we'll remember why we do this.

Since all three control systems do so well with the Sierra (this generation, and presumably next) and the Phoenix ... perhaps if the intention is to sell locomotives equipped with sound that this would be the way to go.  Simply add your own high current decoder, Radio controlled throttle, or ... well, nothing for track power.... and enjoy the "music."  That way we can leave the mud unslung, the figures unreworked, and the teeth unclenched.

By the way ... a straight track powered locomotive with triggered sound effects (reed switches and all that) is a lot of fun to have when you're either in "railfan" mode, running a demonstration where you have to watch your spectators more than the trains, or when you're working nearby on your latest battery (or decoder) conversion, and like to have the train pass by periodically. 

Matthew (OV)

[Steve Stockham]

  Hey guys, this is what I didn't want to happen (but fully expected anyway.) To clarify my questions (plural!), the comment about Sierra being "on it's last legs" was adequately answered by Stan and I thank him. Whether DCC sound equipped locomotives are going to be the wave of the future isn't my real question (I commented that this did seem to be the direction that Bachmann was taking judging from their association with Soundtraxx and their promotion of Tsunami.) If Bachmann wants to move in this direction though then I DO have some legitimate concerns!
  The "Qasinami" (Can't you just tell that I love that name?) lacks some features that would allow me to use my r/c battery RCS unit to control it. This is a grave concern for me IF Bachmann is planning on continuing to use this "special" unit that Soundtraxx only makes for Bachmann and which has all of the troublesome limitations that have been listed above. I haven't heard anything "official" from Bachmann about whether future large scale Spectrum products (particularly the K-27) will include this "Quasinami" that I can't use or a true Tsunami which intrigues me!
  Also, will future models be offered with and without sound or will it be like the 55-ton Shay where certain models came with sound and certain ones didn't and we were just out of luck if the model we wanted wasn't the right one? (This last question is more for Bachmann's top management.)

[Colorado]

My reading of the current market is that the Sierra as it currently exists will not have much opportunity going forward. Should be much better offerings at lower price points, just look at the smaller scales.

Sierra 2 or whatever is another issue.

And I did not think Sountraxx made the Bachmann decoders, I thought they just licensed the technology?

[Maine 2 Foot]

Am I correct that the idle sound issue is only in relation to diesels? I am running steam only, and want to use battery power.

Vince