San Juan Car Company and R-T-R On30

[ksivils]

San Juan Car Company has announced on their r-t-r page on their web site, it can be found under the our products page, that they will be doing both the 268 and 278 in On30 as well as On3.

They have also announced that they will be doing the frameless Gramps tank cars as well.  No word on whether or not this will be in On30 as well, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.

So for those who wanted a different kind of tank car, it will be a bit pricey compared to a Bachmann offering, but it will be worth the money as it will be super detailed.

[Woody Elmore]

Their cars are scale models of DRGW prototypes so keep in mind that they will be much bigger than the Bachmann cars and might even look out of place mixed together. The trucks probably are regauged from On3 standards and I wonder how they deal with truss rod clearances and the disparity in coupler height. I also would like to know what the minimum radius these cars will negotiate without the wheels binding on truss rods or brake apparatus.

I have their long caboose which I built when the first kit came out a long time ago. It is nicely detailed but it is the length of two Bachmann cabooses.

[hminky]

Having bought some of these kits before Bachmann's freight cars came out in hopes of converting them to On30, the underframe needs major moifications to go around any radius. Someone on the On3 Yahoo site was complaining that the underframe doesn't allow On30 operation.

Harold

[japasha]

For the best results on under 30 inch radius your freight cars should be a scale 25 feet or less long.

The only two On3 cars that I presently use because of the disparite size are teh San Juan D&RGW short caboose and the C&S four wheel caboose from Grandt. The latter required changes to the brake system to work and the former required center sill and coupler pocket modifications. On the C&S caboose I  put the coupler pocket under the normal coupler.

I have a few Gramps frameless tank cars and Harold is right, they are just too big. They need to be made smaller to match the Bachmann rolling stock. Remember, the tanks for these cars came from standard gauge cars.

I wanted a steel flat car and found an American models S scale flat and shortened it to work. It scales 29 feet in O, a bit large for things but the dozer I put on it makesthe thing look smaller.

[Tomcat]

I do run some San Juan Models (actually four Stock Cars from their RTR range and Long and Short Cabeese plus a 3000 Boxcar and High Side Gondolas) - they all needed to be converted in order to run on my Layout.

Well, it´s a shame to do so, but one would need to cut the Truss Rods and the Brake piping. Otherwise the bogies won´t move freely. And their wheels are not free rolling, one would need to check the Bogies for that. I can truly state they´re brilliant models, but need some conversion to be ran on a Layout with tighter Curves (approx. 28-30 inches Dia in my Curves) and fit to the MMI and BLI Engines very well...

BUT: They give the right DRGW/RGS appeal to my layout. But I do run the Bachmann Rolling Stock on my other, the Logging Layout. Bachmann does great and if one asked me, I would recommend them to continue with something Colorado Style,... ...why not the RGS No.74....

Or - a "Modern", "Bigger" Shay,... ...but no - I´ll leave that dead ol´Horse on its own, won´t go to beat it again and again...

Kind regards, Tom

[finderskeepers]

Yes, San Juan cars are scale models of Colorado narrow gauge prototypes. Listening to some, it almost would sound that these models are oversized, out of scale behemoths. No, they will not go around 12" radius curves, and yes they will dwarf a porter, but proportionally they look great behind the bachmann 2-8-0 and are a proper match for all the new MMI engines. Quit dumping on the San Juan offerings, they are what they are, scale representations of the prototypes.

[Ken]

Looking at plans & portfolios for 2½ft gauge cars

  MEXICANO boxcars   NG&SLG Sept/Oct 1977
     Length 30 ft
     Width     8 ft
     Height   12ft 6in

  FCA&B (Chile)
     Length  33 ft
     Width      8 ft 8 in
     Height   10 ft 6 in

   FCA&B swapped trucks, with the Meter gauge equipment of the FCB
   Car sizes were the same size.

   Ken
    GWN

[Hamish K]

Victorian Railways (Australia) 30 inch gauge stock: freight cars, excursion cars, some passenger cars -  length 27 feet 4 inches. Other passenger cars 31 feet 4 inches. The best known of these lines is the preserved "Puffing Billy" tourist line. (A section of one of the other lines is also preseved as the Walhalla Goldfields Railway).

Hamish

[japasha]

Your point is?

Prototype Mexican and US narrow gauge  never really had short, abrupt curves as we model with.  24 inch radis is 96 feet in full size. Selcctive compression is required though you can do anything on your model railroad.

[mmiller]

I think the point is many real 30" narrow gauge railroads used cars much longer than the short cars that many in the "mini railroad mafia" seem to demand that everyone in On30 use

there is no mechanical reason longer cars won't run on model railroad sized 20" radius curves, under-body detail may have to be compromised, but I think to most people that is much less noticeable than compressing a car length. The Bachmann scale 35 foot passenger cars operate happily on 18" radius curves and no-one seems to object to them, so I don't understand the hue and cry on the internet when a manufacturer offers something bigger than the typical "undersized"** On30 offering...


if the visual aspects of longer cars on curves less than 30" bother you that's one thing, but to say that is a requirement for proper operation is quite another


mike
San Juan Pacific Lines
On31.17 California 3' narrow gauge
http://webpages.charter.net/mransr/trains



**by undersized I mean in economically practical terms, for instance, what real railroad CFO would understand buying or building 16' stock cars that could only transport 3 or 4 head of cattle?

[japasha]

Once upon a time I was into very scale On3 engines and rolling stock which I still have. Being a civil (or uncivil) engineer I had to restore meter-gauge  railroads in a place called VietNam. It was a poorly done colonial railroad but used 40 foot rooling stock.

The Colorado Narrow gauges used 30 to 40' rolling stock. While the rolling stock could be coherced into running on the Silverton Railroad which had one curve (The so-called Chattanooga Curve) of 165 foot radius (41 inches or so in O scale), a lot of rolling stock left the tracks.

Point is that we are lucky that Bachmann engineers and marketing people build us equipment that will run on absurdly tight radius'. The passenger cars will make the 18 inch radius turns  because the trucks have been moved toward the center of the car to minimize overhang. They were forshortened from a normal 50 foot car. Rather tan being 32 feet in length, the flat cars are about 25 feet. You are correct about the 16 foot stock car. No disagreement there.

My problem is that I am not going to convert or buy any San Juan kits or RTR for 30 inch use. I will keep my On3 as On3. On30 is all freelanced for my own use. My caution to others is that you can modify for use on less than 30 inch radius. Even with good track, there will be problems. Couplers should be made radial on any car over 25 feet in length if you use 30 inch or less for a radius. Bachmann cars were engineered  for purpose and they did a fine job. The San Juan cars are not engineered for less than the equivalent prototype curve. The underside of my short caboose is proof. There is a highly modified center sill and relocated center truss rods.

My feeling is still that it's  your railroad, just be aware that it isn't just put it on the track and go as it is with Bachmann equipment on under 30 inch radius.  I do have a module (3 actually) that have both On3 and On30.

[Woody Elmore]

I certainly am not dumping on San Juan models. They are really nice but they are scale models of 3 foot gauge cars. To put them on an On30 layout means making some changes to cars and/or layout. They would be right at home behind the BLI 2-8-0.

[hoscaleuk]

there also appeaars to be a problem in mixing Bachmann and  San Juan cars in that the san  :
Juan ON30cars have a higher coupler height than the HO standard used by Bachmann and pther Kit probucers in On30
Regards to all
Brian
Chichester UK

[Hamish K]

The point is that narrow gauge stock varied considerably in size even on the same gauge. There is no single right size for rolling stock for ON30 (or any other scale/gauge combination). The Bachmann stock is fairly much 'ball park" for many 30 inch gauge roads, but of course both larger and smaller can be found. Tiddlers did exist, the Yosemite Short Line in California, a 30 inch gauge road  stillborn by the San Francisco earthquake, had tight curves and 18 foot freight cars. The Gilpin tram (2 foot) had 17 foot freight cars. Of course Maine two footers had 40 foot passenger cars.

So what size cars are right for you depends on what you model. If you are modelling Colorado 3 foot (and I see nothing wrong with doing that in ON30 if you wish) the San Juan cars will be right. They may however be a bit big for a lot of 30 inch gauge or indeed some other 3 foot roads. Mixing Bachmann and San Juan stock could look odd as they do represent different sized cars.  However if it looks right to you -

Hamish

[Woody Elmore]

A friend likes to model SPNG and bought some SPNG prototype models, I believe gondolas. The cars need Thielsen trucks - not the easiest thing to find in any scale and the SP used a smaller coupler than the Colorado railroads. My friend uses Kadee HO couplers in the original coupler pocket - just like the real thing.

If you take one of the SP cars as built and try to couple it with, let's say, a DRGW 3000 series boxcar, there is a coupler problem as well as height problem. The Colorado prototypes are much lower on their trucks.

Modellers need to pick and choose and keep in mind that the Colorado cars are large. The DRGW had a 40 long reefer.