Reliable and Detailed Steam Recommendations

[Dakota7820]

Looking into the possibilities of building an N scale freelanced layout. The theme will be a 1950s bridge line type railroad in the Southern U.S. with a Nickel Plate Road flavor (i.e. fast freights, similar motive power). My questions are concerning steam power. Bachmann's 2-8-4 is a given, so that's out of the way. Here are the others on my wish list:

• 2-8-2 Heavy Mikado
My ideal plan is Kato's heavy Mikado with GHQ Model's Southern Railway Ms-4 detailing kit. I love the look of these. They seem to not be in production anymore, though. Are these hard to find, and better yet, are they good runners/pullers if they can be found? Any others out there that someone can recommend?

• 4-6-4 Hudson
I'd like to have a J3a type Hudson for my secondary passenger train. Anyone make a decent N scale model? I've seen the Con-Cor Hudsons on the internet and they look decent to me....but are they good operators? Are they even still in production?

I'm brand new to the N scale game, especially when it comes to steam power. Any opinions, experience, and recommendations are extremely appreciated!

[brokemoto]

Are you running DC or DCC?

The Kato USRA heavy 2-8-2 is not in current production, but they are at dealers as NOS, at shows and on auction sites.   If you get a later run, it comes with the handrailings installed and the traction tyre driver pair.  If you get a first or second run, it leaves the details (handrailings and other stuff) for you to install and does not have the traction tyre pair.  If you get a fist or second run, buy the traction tyre and do the swap-out.  It is not difficult.

They are good runners.  You might want to add some weight to the tender, as it does help with the electrical contact.   If you do not get the traction tyre, it will barely pull eight Micro-Trains boxcars and an MT wood caboose up a one per-cent grade at twenty-five SMPH.   If you do the traction tyre driver pair swap-in, it will pull fifteen loaded MT gondolas and a MT wood caboose up a one per cent grade at twenty-five SMPH with no problem.  Fifteen is the most that I tried.  

The handrailing installation can be a pain.  Modellers have complained about the difficulty of getting the stanchions to go in and launching them.  I used a small or average sized pair of needlenose pliers to do mine..  Take care not to pinch too tight lest you either ruin the stanchion or launch it.   This locomotive is reputed to be one of the most difficult decoder installs.  I do not use DCC, so I can not comment much about it.

You  mentioned the GHQ kit.  I am aware that these are pewter kits, but I do not know how much of the Kato model that you use or how much of the GHQ parts replace Kato parts on the Ms-4 kit.  The Pennsylvania kit replaces almost the entire locomotive and tender shell.  I know that the Southern kit exists.  I  never have seen the results of anyone's building, it, though.

The Con-Cor J3a is long out of production, but there are some out there.  

The last one was made in China and had a flywheel.  Many purchasers left off the flywheel as they stated that they found that the flywheel did not improve the performance.   C-C designed the thing to run with a flywheel.  I tried mine without it and it would barely pull four Kato smoothsides up a one per cent grade at forty SMPH.  I added the flywheel and it pulled ten of them at the same forty SMPH up the same one per-cent grade with no problem. The problem with the flywheel is that it is not balanced.  This makes it wobble a bit at speed and will cause premature and uneven wear on the armature bearing.  

There are older version out there that are pretty good.   If you get the very first run from the late 1960s or early 1970s (I forget exactly when it was), it runs well, but has a nasty habit of locking up after long use.  You can tell the very first run because it was designed to run without the tender.  Subsequent runs required the tender and, unusual for that era, had an all wheels live tender.  I do not know how easy or difficult it is to put a decoder into the C-C hudson.

Alternatives to the hudson:

B-mann K-4 Pacific-There is no mistaking this thing for anything but what it is:  a Pennsylvania Pacific.  Still depending on how good you are at bashing, there is a possibility.  Pennsylvania sold several K-3 Pacifics to the N&W in the 1930s.  They were sold locomotives only; no tender.   A couple of them lasted until the end of the 1940s.  They had the same cab as the B-6b.  How does a B-6b come into play, here?   The TRIX
0-6-0 is a B-6b.   I made a N&W E-3 (N&W's classification for the locomotives) by sawing off the K-4 cab from the TRIX Pacific shell, sawing off the cab from the TRIX 0-6-0 shell and fusing the B-6b cab onto the K-4 boiler.  This allowed me to cut down the huge Belpaire firebox on the K-4 to a size closer to that of the K-3/E-3.  It went back onto the TRIX power chassis.  I put a twelve wheels live (!) tender from the Life-Like USRA 2-8-8-2 behind it.  During their time on the N&W, these things had some different tenders.  At one point, some of them had a tender that looked much like that on the Y-3.   I did remove the doghouse as few, if any, N&W passenger locomotives had a doghouse.

I do not know if you can do the same thing to a B-mann K-4 that I did to a TRIX K-4, but it is a thought.

MRC, through the Model Power name, sells a USRA light pacific.   You can buy the "plain ol' " version or you can buy one with a decoder and sound.  While MRC did do something to improve the electrical contact on these from the MP versions, still, it left in place one glaring error.  MP had only half wheels live tenders on these things.  Those are 1970s construction methods.   I took out the stock tenders and put some
B-mann SPECTRUM or Kato USRA standard tenders behind mine.  Both of these are all wheels live tenders.   The MP steam all runs well, but, it does suffer from the lack of an all wheels live tender.

One thing that you might consider is to use a Berkshire for your secondary passenger train.  C&O used Van Sweringen Berkshires on passenger trains in the hills of Kentucky.  While I have seen the B-mann run, and it runs well, the smoothest N scale locomotive that ever I have seen run is the Life-Like/Walthers Berkshire.  If you get the LL version, it has no traction tyres and is an anemic puller.  This is allright if your secondary passenger train is no more than three cars and does not have to climb any grades.  The WKW re-issue did come with traction tyres and is a much better puller.

Is your secondary passenger train a local, a mail train or intercity?   If it is a local, you might consider the B-mann ten wheeler.  It is a good locomotive,.

While consolidateds are not known as fast freight power, B-mann's 2-8-0 is an excellent locomotive.  It and the Kato 2-8-2 are still the yardsticks against which all other N scale steam is measured.   The B-mann pulls slightly better than does the Kato, even when you put the traction tyre driver pair onto the Kato.

Enjoy your ventures into N scale steam.  A good thing to keep in mind when dealing with N scale steam is Miranda's Maxim as explained by ke:  The poor performance of many N scale steam locomotives is almost always directly attributable to poor electrical contact.

While the above statement was made a few years back, in the days when the tenders were half wheels live and the driver contacts were not that good, you can, at times, see where some N scale steam locomotives fall short due to poor electrical pick up.  My citation of the MPs is a case in point.  With the B-mann or Kato all wheels live tenders, the MPs are real winners.   B-mann learned long back that you need all wheels live tenders for good performance.  The only N scale steam locomotive that B-mann still has in production that has anything less than an all wheels live tender, at least that I am aware, is the USRA 0-6-0.  Funny, though, B-mann sells two all wheels live tenders that are suitable for that locomotive.  Some minor surgery is all that is required to swap out the old for new.  As B-mann  has upgraded the power chassis on the USRA 0-6-0, if you put an all wheels live tender onto it, the thing is a real winner.  I have one that is working the most demanding job on my pike and does it well.  I platoon it with a B-mann 2-8-0 in that job.


Take a peek at Spookshow's website.  All honour and respect to Spookshow, always, as he has expended unstinting and tireless effort to compile an encyclopedia of N scale power and rolling stock.  His website will tell you what is out there and how good it is (or ain't).   It tells you how to do the surgery to the SPECTRUM  tender to fit it to the USRA 0-6-0.   Look at his site, it is informative---and THAT is an understatement.

[Dakota7820]

Thanks very much for the info, this was very informative. I plan to go with DCC...I don't know much about it, but I like what I've read lol. I will probably try and look up a Kato heavy 2-8-2, as I'm sure there will be some out there somewhere. My idea for the secondary passenger service is an intercity train with a mix of both heavyweight and smooth side cars. It will serve in-between places that my flagship streamliner with E-units won't stop at. I do like the thought of using a Berkshire for power. I can say that the railroad only ordered steam locomotives with dual purpose capabilities in the final years of steam.

As for the rest of the railroad, EMD F-units, GP7s, SD9s, and Alco RSD-12s will handle most all service. I've yet to come up with a name though.....Gulf, Mobile & Texas ("Gulf Coast Line") has a nice sound. Maybe Atlanta, Gulf & New Orleans ("The Gulf Road").

[spookshow]

The Kato USRA heavy 2-8-2 is not in current production, but they are at dealers as NOS, at shows and on auction sites.   If you get a later run, it comes with the handrailings installed and the traction tyre driver pair.

FYI, I don't believe that the Kato Mikado ever came with pre-installed traction tires (although the last production run did come with all of the detailing preinstalled). From their most recent announcement - "Optional traction tire available individually".

Don't ask me why, though. They're almost completely useless without them.

Cheers,
-Mark

[Dakota7820]

Sorry for trailing off subject here, but has anyone ever tried to super detail the N scale Bachmann 4-8-4? I know it's a little crude looking with all the molded on details, but I wonder if it could be dressed up a little? A little bit of good weathering would certainly help too.

[gatrhumpy]

Sorry for trailing off subject here, but has anyone ever tried to super detail the N scale Bachmann 4-8-4? I know it's a little crude looking with all the molded on details, but I wonder if it could be dressed up a little? A little bit of good weathering would certainly help too.

I plan on doing this in a couple of weeks at the National N Scale Convention in late June.

[brokemoto]

The first ALCo RSD-12 appeared in 1956, so, I would assume that those that your railroad is running would be brand new or almost,  and have only some road dirt on them. if even that.   Most larger railroads had gotten rid of their steam by 1957, so you would barely get away with it.  You did mention NYC&StL, on which steam lasted about one year longer, until 1958.  Uncle Pete ran it until 1959 and N&W until 1960 or 1961, I forget which, now.  Steam did hang on a little longer on some short lines.

If you want to back date it a bit and want a C-C ALCo, you could use an RSD-4, which Atlas sells.   Funny thing about the Atlas RSD-4 of Chinese manufacture is that the trucks are B1-1B on the model, while the prototype was C-C.  I suspect that Atlas had this done to keep down the cost.  The result  is that the thing will not pull as well as the Atlas RS-3 of Chinese manufacture.   Funny, though, if your run them in pairs, the pulling power is acceptable for the pair.  

The Atlas/Kato RSD-4 does have C-C trucks as does the prototype.  I always have been somewhat less than impressed with the Atlas/Kato power, as I found them to be finicky runners.  My greatest complaint is that they stall at speeds under thirty-five SMPH on less-than-professional-grade trackwork.  I did manage to get around this by hardwiring pairs together.

I am aware that Atlas did issue an RS-11 of Chinese manufacture.   I have read conflicting dates on its appearance:  some state 1956; some, 1957.   There is also the Atlas/Kato RS-11.  I do not know if Atlas ever issued an RSD-12 of Chinese manufacture.  B-mann does sell an RS-3, with a decoder in it.   I do not have that one, but, if the GP-7 or FM road switcher is at all instructive, I would assume that it runs and pulls well.

Now, to complete this quirky diseasel discussion, Kato sells an RSC-2.  The prototype and A-1-A trucks.  The model has C-C.

...........annnnd now, back on topic..........................

If it is DCC that you want, you might want to consider slowing some of your fast freight and running B-mann consolidateds.   You could run your secondary passenger and fast freights  with Berkshires.   The consolidateds could be back up freight power and slow freight power.  B-mann does sell a USRA light 2-10-2, but the USRA Santa Fes were slow freight power, not fast.  The B&O and SP 2-10-2s were fast freight power, but no one sells either of those in N scale.   In fact, SP regullarly used its 2-10-2s  to pull passenger trains in the mountains in Oregon.  I have seen photographs and movies of Big Sixes on B&O #29 and #30, the major mail trains on that railroad.  

The B-mann Berkshire does come with a decoder.  The LL did not, and, as far as I know, the WKW second run did not, either.   I do not know how difficult it is to install a decoder in the LL/WKW Berkshire.

I know only what I have heard about the latest versions of the B-mann 4-8-4.  I do not know if even it has a decoder in it.   The tender is electrically neutral.   If you are going to run it and put a decoder into it, you might want to do something to make the tender electrically live.  

The prototype on which B-mann's 4-8-4 is based is a Santa Fe oil burner.   You could run both oil and coal burners if you choose the Texas route.   Texas and Pacific ran both.  T&P even tried to run peet burners, with limited, if any, success.    Supposedly, the last issue of the 4-8-4 is allright, but that is only what I hear.   I have stopped buying large steam anymore, unless it is specific to the B&O or P&LE.  Thus, I did buy B-mann's EM-1.  If anyone did a P&LE A-2a, I would buy it.   All that was really was a Mikado with a large firebox and a four wheel trailing truck that was necessary to support it, anyhow.

[in_eden]

The Kato mike was the previous "gold standard" for N scale steam... but it was not DCC, and you had to self-install the traction tires.
Model Power makes a nice 2-8-2 with sound, in a good number of roads, comes DCC+sound equipped for a very reasonable price, is a good runner, pulls well, but is detail sparse and a little rough around the edges.

The Con-Cor Hudson was... well... in it's day it was great. But compared to modern top-flight N scale steam, it's a toy. My initial one ran well for about 2 months (purchased new old stock in 2008) and then the left running gear fell off... sent back, Con Cor replaced with a different loco... and it never ran. Luckily one of the scenes of my layout is a RR museum, so it serves a purpose in static display!

The market (are you listening Bachmann?) is in dire need of a quality 4-6-4. An NYC J3 would be an enormous seller, plus the running gear could be re-used for 4-6-4s of many roads. If I were a manufacturer... ahem... I would be prototyping one ASAP.

In all honesty, you've picked a great time to get into N scale.

Bachmann has done a fantastic job upping the ante on N scale steam, with the 2-8-4s, the K4, the EM1... all great models. The recent Broadway Limited PRR M1a is the best out-of-the-box N scale steam loco I've owned...

If you aren't tied to a sound-equipped loco... try to find a Bachmann Heavy Mountain, mine is a fantastic runner and pulls 25 freight cars without problem. If you aren't DCC, their 2-8-0 of a few years ago (if you can find one... both of these sold very well!) and their N&W J are also really really good locos.

My two cents anyway!

[brokemoto]

If you aren't tied to a sound-equipped loco... try to find a Bachmann Heavy Mountain, mine is a fantastic runner and pulls 25 freight cars without problem.

It is a good thing that you mentioned these, as I had forgotten all about them, and I have some.  B-mann sold both the light and heavy
USRA 4-8-2.  The light appeared first.  The first runs of the lights had some problems with the pulling power, as the tyred driver was not making proper contact with the rail.  They ran very nicely, it was just that they would not pull much.  The fix was not that difficult: it involved putting a shim under the bearing blocks of the tyred driver.   My understanding is that Bachpersonn addressed the problem in subsequent runs, but, as I did not buy any of the subsequent runs, I have no experience with them.   The latest runs of them might even have a decoder from the factory.

The heavy is decidedly the better of the two.  It comes with a decoder and runs and pulls well.  You might use the 4-8-2 on the secondary passenger and the Berkshires on the freights.

The details on both the 4-8-2s are excellent.

[Dakota7820]

Thanks for all the info and recommendations guys, it was certainly helpful!

[gatrhumpy]

BTW, it's not all that bad (if you've done hard-wired decoder installation before) to make the LL 2-8-4 Berkshire DCC-equipped. I have done it.

[in_eden]

The LL/Proto Berks are pretty, well detailed models. Mine don't pull a darn thing though. Esp. on any kind of grade. Plastic shell + no traction tire makes them poor performers. Smooth runners though. Great display locos! My Bachmann NKP berk is better runner over-all, and it comes DCC/Sound equipped.

The nice thing is that if you want to run N scale steam, there has never been a better time to do it! It looks like locos are selling well... so hopefully we are only scratching the surface of things to come!

[RGPerkins]

I started in n-scale model railroading about 1974 and my primary interest is in the steam era.
I waited a long time before I found a steam locomotive that I liked, i.e. the 2-8-2 from Kato.
Then the Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 was released and I purchased two in B&O.  A couple of years
ago I hired dcc and sound to be installed.
I have several Bachmann steam locomotives, the most recent purchase is the 4-6-2s.
I am pleased with the product and serve.

I would like to see a rerun of the Spectrum 2-8-0 with dual mode.
I have the 2-6-0, 4-6-0, 2-8-4, and 2-8-8-4.