HO scale subway-elevated cars.

[RAM]

I would think all they would need would be to make a body for a freight trolley

[Woody Elmore]

The problem with modelling Rapid Transit is that there are many systems but really only a handful of dedicated modellers. Also there is a large variety of rolling stock. New York City must have had dozens of different cars over the years.

A friend used to tell people that he had a working model of the NYC transit system. When people would ask if they could see it, he'd say: "How can you? It runs in tunnels under the house."

[Frankford el car]

Perhaps the perception is, that there is only "a handful" of dedicated rapid transit modelers. More modelers in New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, and Boston, are more familiar with the rapid transit lines, than with Amtrak, CSX, and Norfolk Southern. And in those cities, a lot of Amtrak employees get to and from work, on the rapid transit lines that run past the Amtrak stations. Some of which are model railroaders.

[Woody Elmore]

I doubt that there is a large enough group of people out there to support the expense of tooling up for rapid transit cars. The big issue is what city and what era.

There are NYC modelers who'd love to see some IRT low voltage cars. Yet they were retired before many of today's fans were born. Sure there are a few opportunities to ride in them when they hold a fan trip but would that support producing them?

Also, to be NYC prototypical you need 8 to 10 cars to make a train. That's a big investment.

[paulsafety]

Woody,

I appreciate your comments, but I don't agree.   

Would your comment be equally appropriate if the subject wasn't rapid transit, but say B-mann's decision to make "logging" engines (the three truck shay was a radical departure for B-mann at that time), or certain prototypes that have limited appeal (On30 0-4-2 tank engines?). 

Should manufacturers only produce the most commonly accepted products --- say F-7s  or only USRA steam  -- and never anything odd like a baldwin road switcher, or say an Alco DL-109?  Simarly, should manufacturers avoid smaller roads like New Haven or Reading?  Just because a product or road name appeals to a small group doesn't mean it won't be accepted or profitable.

Look at On30.  There was a dedicated group of On30 modelers before B-mann produced more products and we could have easily wondered "what are they thinking making On30?"  But it took off and people got excited about it and more products were produced.  Maybe following LifeLikes R17s with a different rapid transit model will spark more attention and create a new market for even more products.

Regarding era of prototype....Low-V cars were retired before I was born, but I like to model the 1920s.  I doubt that criteria (modeling trains that ran during your own lifespan) applies to a lot of modelers -- civil war era modelers are probably happy that B-mann produces their early era 4-4-0s for example (and these modelers almost certainly were not around to railfan during the 1800's!) 

Regarding the need to model 8-10 car trains -- if the objection is that it will cost a lot, then why would anyone model full passenger consists (look at Walthers GN Empire builder, and Hiawatha passenger sets).  Stating that the length of the train makes it cost prohibitive and therefore an undesirable model would also "rule out" coal unit trains and long strings of auto racks or grain trains. 

I'm just saying that if we never try something new, we'll only ever model Pennsy K-4s, ATSF Warbonnet F7s, and 40 foot box cars painted oxide red.  (I'm being extreme to illustrate a point).

I respect your opinion, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

Paul F.

[Frankford el car]

Woody, I have to agree with Paul F.;

First, your assertion that all pre-1940 rapid transit (subway-elevated) trains were retired long before most current modelers could ride them, is inaccurate. The Chicago Transit Authority didn't retire their 1922-built 4000-series cars, until 1973. I was seventeen at that time. The Southeasrtern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA), didn't retire the 1928-built, 1936-built, and 1938-built cars on the Broad Street Subway in Philadelphia, until 1982, when I was twenty-six. And the IND R-1's-thru-R-9's in New York, didn't make their final revenue runs until approx. 1977.

Now, on to your point about train length. THe IRT, and BMT in New York, as well as the CTA in Chicago, and SEPTA in Philadelphia, have run trains as short as two cars, in regular mid-day service, as well as six-thru-eleven-car trains during the AM and PM rushes.  That's the point of couplers, to allow assembling and disassembling trains to lengths required for the traffic demand.

As to your assertion that most current modelers have no interest in pre-war (1939-45) rapid transit, then why has The Bach Mann seen fit to announce production of a 1930's-era Peter Witt trolley, which is a form of rapid transit?

For those that would prefer a more current rapid transit car, the IRT boast's the R-62's, and R-142's. The CTA has their 2200-thru-3400-series' cars in operation. And the MBTA has their Hawker-Sidley Blue Line cars, dating from approx. 1980, which are about to be replaced with newer cars themselves. All of which are of reasonable length to use on relative tight (15-inch radius) curves, as well as every car to have ever operated on the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad/Port Authority Trans Hudson (H&M/PATH) lines between Newark, NJ, and Lower Manhattan.

The point is, that there is just as much variety to chose from for rapid transit modelers to state their preference, as there are for steam, diesel, and heavy electric modelers. It's simply a matter of the majority stating the car(s) most preferred, to Bachmann, or another manufacturer.

[Woody Elmore]

You guys make some good points. I never meant to imply that young modellers aren't interested in things that ran before they were born. 

My point is, just by reading the posts, that a company could produce all manner of rapid transit cars and still not make all the modellers happy. It just wouldn't make economic sense for a company.

I remember riding the old BMT articulated cars out to Coney Island. Three cars and four trucks. They'd be an impressive model ( and may have been done in brass at one time). I have no idea how many 3 car units were run together but those trains were long. They may have run 2 car trains in Chicago but I remember 6 car minimums on the IRT "1" train. IND trains often were (and are) 10 cars long. A modeller would need lots of rolling stock to duplicate the prototype.

By the way, I've been messing with trains for a long. long tiome and I welcome any models that will get someone into the hobby, even Penn Central models.

[paulsafety]

Woody,

You're a great sport -- I'm glad you didn't see my comments as any kind of "flame-thing".   

I think that the BMT articulated cars would be an awesome model (maybe I can build one out of an MTH triplex with a set of lifelike R17 bodies -- just kidding! )

Seriously, the BMT model would be very impressive, especially as you pointed out -- if two or more sets were coupled together!

Paul F.

[Frankford el car]

Woody;

The IRT routinely ran two-car trains on the Second Ave. el' in Manhattan, the Polo Grounds Shuttle between 155th St. in Manhattan, and the Jerome Ave. el' in the Bronx, to 167th St., as well as the Dyre Ave. Line between 180th St., and Dyre Ave. The BMT ran two-car trains on the Culver Shuttle, Franklin Shuttle, and Lexington Ave. el'. And Staten Island Rapid Transit also ran two-car trains, prior to being re-equipted with the R-44's. Plus there's the IRT's Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle. So short trains are not out of the realm of operation, on New York subway and el' lines. Even the Third Ave. el' routinely ran trains of 3-5 cars, depending on the traffic level.

Keep in mind, a ten-car train is not necessary for a realistic rapid transit train, anymore than three SD-40's, and one hundred quad-hoppers are required, to run a unit coal train on a layout. It's just not practical, as you'd end up having trains on an el' so long, that the lead car is rolling into a station, just as the trailing end car is leaving the preceeding station. A 4, 5, or 6-car train is plenty long enough, for an HO scale layout, as the el' stations on my layout are just under three feet long, and a four-car train of the Proto 1000 R-17's or R-21's, uses almost the entire platform length.

[paulsafety]

Some additional info on BMT Triplex:

http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bmt-d.html

And some photos:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26365
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6513

Paul F.

[Frankford el car]

For those who aren't comfortable with a short rapid transit train, here's a photo of a three-car train of the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad D-Class cars near Newark, NJ, near the end of their operating lives, in 1958.

http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/galleryframesetcars.html

[Woody Elmore]

Wow - the Polo Grounds shuttle - and the Franklin Avenue shuttle. I must admit to some ignorance of these arcane topics. I remember leaving the Polo Grounds once with my grandfather when some kids decided to go wild  - I guess the Giants had won. They unscrewed most of the light bulbs and through them out the open windows!

I completely forgot about the Times Square shuttle (I think the MTA has also!)

My point is not that there weren't short trains, but rather, many trains run 6-8 cars (even 10). To prototypically model rapid transit you will eventually want to have a more prototypical length train. 

As I previously wrote, I'm for the production of any model that runs on two rails. I do think that the rapid transit area is a small market and there are hunddreds of prototypes. A manufacturer would have to be very wary of producing models that may not sell.

[paulsafety]

Frankford El Car:

I assume you're already aware of the Budd M-3 being available?
http://motormanmodels.tripod.com/hophotos/hobuddelcars.jpg

Nice model!

Paul F.

[Woody Elmore]

Speaking of rapid transit - there was news last week that a French company building rapid transit rolling stock (and maybe stuff for Amtrak) is having problems meeting deadlines and maintaining quality.

What ever happened to Budd, Pullman Standard and Magor? Why are American transit systems reduced to getting stuff made in France, of all places? Does anyone remember the Renault Le Car? The French workers work a 32 hour week as a rule and get off the month of July. I see the problem; they are overworked.

[Dr EMD]

Woody

A bit off topic?