What happened to upgrade DC power packs?

[Albert in N]

Just curious since I noted MRC remains out of stock on most of theirs and Bachmann no longer offers their Spectrum Magnum series.  With the current recession, I doubt that everyone else is going into DCC and paying extra for milling out frames on older locomotives.  So far, my old MRC Tech II dualpower 2800 and Spectrum Magnum keep my layout running fine.  If one wears out with heavy usage plus age, I could probably find something similar at another hobby shop or train show.   My favorite two local area hobby shops do not stock any new DC packs and indicate supply problems.  Kato still has their one pack.  No emergency on this end, but just wondering.

[richg]

DC is just not as important anymore.
You will find plenty of DC power packs at shows and ebay.

Rich

[skipgear]

Our shop has all the MRC packs in stock. There are down times between restocks at times but they are pretty steady in stock. We hardly sell any DC transformers any more. DCC is selling 1 : 1 with DC right now.

[Desertdweller]

I would take issue with that statement.  DC certainly remains important to all who are using it.

I still use an MRC Tech II Dual Power pack on my N-scale railroad and am very happy with it.  I believe most actual operating model railroads in this country are DC.

Anybody who wants DCC and can afford it can have it.  If the manufacturers were to offer only DCC products, I think their sales would suffer considerably.

Even model railroaders who can afford to have an extensive locomotive roster with DCC have only so much money to spend on locomotives and control systems.  They can either spend it on DCC controllers and decoders, or on more DC locomotives with a simple and reliable DC control system.  A model railroad like my own, that runs a large number of trains from several different railroads, needs a lot of cars and locomotives.  I would rather spend my money on trains and locomotives for them.

The manufacturers have an interest in selling expensive equipment, and the hobby magazines have an interest in pushing their advertisers' products.  If your view of the hobby is based on what the hobby magazines and their advertisers are saying, then yes, DC is unimportant.  If your view of the hobby is based on actually building and operating a model railroad (not just a loop of track and a locomotive or two), then your hobby interest is based on getting the most for your hobby dollar, and in that case, DC is very important indeed.

Almost everything that can be gained by using DCC can be achieved with plain old DC.  DCC requires just as much wiring as DC for reliable operation, despite early claims that "it only takes two wires to hook up your railroad".

Sound systems do not require DCC.  DCC requires relatively high voltage to be on all powered tracks at all times, even if the train is not moving.  To isolate track requires   DC-style block wiring.  Thus you have additional potential (no pun intended) for short circuits and fires.

True, you can run your trains head-on into each other with DCC, but, unless you are Gomez Addams, why would you want to?

DCC can also be used to operate things like switch machines, which can be operated more reliably and cheaply with conventional wiring.

I am a retired locomotive engineer, so I think I can judge what is "realistic" and what isn't.  I have also left a good portion of my hearing in locomotive cabs due to "realistic sound effects".

Virtually any N-scale model locomotive that has ever been made anywhere on this planet will operate on DC.  This is greater compatibility than is realized with actual locomotives.  While all in the same "scale", their track gauges differ.  N-scale is 9mm, regardless of the equipment.  The only problem comes when DC locomotives are put on a DCC system.  This makes DCC, not DC, the "odd man out".

It is my own opinion that DCC is an expensive gimmick that is apt to lose its popularity as its drawbacks are realized.  If the manufacturers will continue to support DC, I think DC will remain the hobby standard.  If they do not support DC, they are going to lose a lot of customers.  A DCC locomotive can be converted to run on DC easier and more cheaply than converting a DC locomotive to run on DCC.

Les

[poliss]

DCC is 21 years old this year. Quite a long time for a gimmick. The wiring is simpler. Take a couple of oval sections of track joined by turnouts with two locomotives. Using DC, swap the locos from one oval to the other without using isolated sections. Can you do it? I know I can with DCC.  "Thus you have additional potential (no pun intended) for short circuits and fires." A short circuit is a short circuit whether you're using DC or DCC. A DCC controller will cut out a lot faster than a DC controller, so reducing any presumed chance of fires.

DCC can do a lot of things not possible with DC. You can have uncoupling anywhere on the layout. You can attach helper engines at the back of your trian if there is a steep incline. You can have cargo trucks with opening roofs where you can lift the cargo out with a crane. If you have youngsters visiting who like to run trains at 300mph full throttle you can restrict the maximum speed. There are many more things possible too and more are in development.

[mhampton]

Judging by what I read online and in the model press, people who do not enthusiastically endorse DCC are stone-age neanderthals.  Apparently I, too, am one of them.  I have happily used DC for a long time and will continue to do so.  Sure there a lot of things that CAN be done with trains using DCC, but nothing I WANT to do with MY trains that can't be done with DC.  I won't be so close-minded to rule it out if the NEED ever arises, but until then I have no justifiable reason for the extra expense.

[railsider]

DCC is still relatively new, even if it hasa reached the age of 21. How mature were you at 21?

Like automatic transmissions and digital television broadcasting, it promises advantages but also has unpublicized drawbacks. For some of us, the one outweighs the other, and for some of us, it's the other way around. To each his own.

A lot depends on how you run your pike, just as the type of car you own depends a lot on how and where you drive. Some new technology seems to be perfect, like indoor plumbing (remember Hilton's "Shangri-La"?) but there are pros and cons to them all. Let's hope that the model industry doesn't decide to dump the old and make the new the only -- as the record business did with the DVD -- and leave us with a Hobson's Choice of DCC or nothin'. That would be unfortunate.

Railsider

[Ken G Price]

There are lots of really good DC power packs being sold still.
Of course those who have a lot invested in a DC layout have a different opinion then those of us that do not, and could make a choice on a system the next time around.

If Les has a lot of DC engines that run good and he has all the wiring set up for block control then DC is just fine.

I still have my really good MRC power packs from my earlier layout. I have run my DCC engines with just the DC light boards in them and they run very well. Not as much fun as DCC, IMO.

[Desertdweller]

Poliss:

I personally would not want to build a DC layout without block wiring, but yes, two DC locos can be run from one oval to another with block wiring, if they are both pulling the same train.

And you do have potential for shorts and fires with DCC.  Unless you divide the railroad into DC-style blocks, all tracks are going to have 18-24v AC power on them as long as the powerpack is on, even if the throttles are shut.  On a DC railroad, if the throttle is turned off, the track is dead.

Quite possibly, people owning large DCC railroads have block wiring installed anyway, so blocks can be isolated and locomotives can be parked without power on them.  In the real world, only locomotives on mainlines are required to have their headlights burning when left parked.

I'm not really sure what you mean about being able to uncouple anywhere with DCC.
Are you referring to locomotives with onboard uncoupling systems?  I think that is unusual even for DCC locos.
You can locate an uncoupling magnet on any model railroad anywhere you want, regardless of the control system used.  And full-sized railroads don't uncouple cars and locomotives just anywhere, only in certain locations.

DCC's promise of simple wiring has not met the test of reality, unless you have a very small railroad.  The system is so sensitive to interruptions and voltage drop that it requires as much feeder wiring as a DC system for reliable operation.  If you add all the wiring you would need for DC, plus the isolation switches needed to control block sections, where is the big savings DCC is supposed to have?  You have a much more expensive control system (unless you use the most basic of starter systems), and more expensive locomotives.

I've never seen a DCC system with cargo trucks with opening roofs and a crane, but that really sounds like a gimmick to me.  If that is the thing that turns you on, maybe you would be better off with tinplate.

Helper operations are certainly possible with DC.  You only need to have blocks that are shorter than your train.

Visiting youngsters that like to run trains at 300mph are not allowed anywhere near the railroad.

mhampton:

The model press reinforces the idea that people who don't use DCC are Neanderthals, I agree.  To understand why, you only need to follow the money trail.
The advertisers support the magazine.  The magazine supports the advertisers by creating the illusion that it is necessary to use the latest technology offered by those advertisers.  The needs and the best interests of the magazine's customers are ignored in this revolving door.  This is why I am not renewing my subscription to a model railroad hobby magazine.  Most of the articles are about a scale I do not model in, or articles relating to DCC, neither of which a relevant to my own hobby needs.

railsider:

A 21 year-old gimmick is still a gimmick, if it does not offer increased value to its users.  What advantages does DCC really offer?

I can see there is an advantage in being able to match locomotive speeds in a consist, so units with widely varying speeds (due to gearing or motor characteristics) can run smoothly together.  In my own experience with DC, this is not much of a problem.  Most all similar units, even from different manufacturers, will run acceptably well together.

Onboard sound, especially in N-scale, is more difficult to do with DC, but by no means impossible.

Constant headlights at all times?  Not found on the actual railroads.  Directional lighting is already common in DC, simply by using a pair of diodes in the headlight circuit.

On the fly uncoupling?  This is unusual even with DCC.  And it is unprototypical.
Real trains need to be stopped before cutting off cars, to close the angle cock on the cars still attached to the locomotive at the point of the cut.  Otherwise, the whole train would go into emergency, including the locomotives.

Trains moving in opposite directions on the same track?  You can easily do this with block DC wiring.

So, for a lot more money, you get locomotives you can closely match speeds with, make noise easier with, have to program, might melt your wheels to the track, and are impervious to trouble-shooting without additional electronic hardware.  I cannot call that an improvement, or even call it progress.

Les

[Desertdweller]

Ken:

Thanks for your comments.

I am using an MRC Tech II dual pack I purchased in the 1980's.  It is still working flawlessly.  I bought it to replace an even older MRC dual pack that I purchased new in 1979.  This pack used taper-wound rheostats and manual pulse selection, quite up to date for the time.  It had a metal case.  The case would heat up in use and buzz.

I've said on this forum before that I might consider DCC for a future railroad if I had only a small number of operable DC locomotives.  I strongly suspect that my present N scale railroad will be my last.  My current railroad is three years old.  The one it replaced lasted 28 years!

I have about 60 operable N-scale locomotives.  Only 38 see regular use, because my railroad is passenger-oriented, and the other 22 are freight units.

My railroad uses EZ Track for main lines and major side tracks, Atlas flex track for all other track.  All 40 track switches are remote-controlled with conventional AC motors and wiring.

My wiring is conventional DC block wiring.  It is dependable and straightforward, and can be visually traced.  Two turntables are Atlas, powered with Bachmann DC powerpacks and throttles.  They also provide power for switch machines.  An old Bachmann train set powerpack provides additional switch machine power.

Eleven Atlas Selector panels route power to 33 blocks and 9 roundhouse tracks.  An Atlas Controller feeds power to the reverse loop.  Some of the Selectors came off the previous layout.

My railroad features a total of 20 passenger trains from seven different railroads.  I chose to spend my hobby money modeling these trains and building the railroad, rather than spend it on DCC.  I'm glad we can still make choices like this.

Les

[poliss]

No, I did not mean on the same train. I meant moving from one oval to the other with seperate trains.
No, there is no danger of fire because the controller cuts the power when there's a short.
No, you do not need to isolate sections to 'park' a loco.
No, DCC is not sensitive to voltage drop,  interruptions or dirty track with modern stay alive decoders. They will even cope with dirty track far better than DC locos.
No, uncoupling on the fly is not unprototypical. It used to happen all the time with passenger trains at speed.

You call opening roofs on cargo trucks a gimmick. Others might call it adding to operational interest.
How do you operate these blocks when using a helper engine? Why complicate the wiring with blocks and switches when you don't have to?
How is the hobby going to survive if you keep visiting youngsters away from your layout?
Programming locos is no more difficult than dialing a phone number.
I don't read the modelling press, so I'm not affected by any advertising.
DCC locos need no converting to run on DC power.
Do the lights on real locos dim when they slow down?

I'm not trying to change the minds of confirmed DCers. I know from experience that it's impossible.

[Albert in N]

Just checked online and MRC website shows "Out of Stock" for their Tech 4 and most Tech 6 power packs (that is DC transformer).  Train World Online also no longer shows dual control Tech 4.  Bachmann Spectrum Magnum power packs are no longer made and Troller is long gone.  Sure someone has some stuck back in inventory somewhere.  The speed controller with transformer supplied in most train sets will handle only one locomotive with a couple of turnouts (switches) or other accessory.  To handle two or more locomotives for an hour, or longer , operating session requires a larger DC power pack.  Yes, Bachmann, and others, still make and sell DC locomotive train sets (many are not DCC ready).  Not to worry since September 2012 Railroad Model Craftsman has an add for the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra noting it operates analog and digital locos.  Does that mean I can run DCC and then operate an older design DC locomotive with this same Zephyr xtra?  Maybe other DCC power will also run DC (analog) locos, I just don't know.  Unfortunately, there are no local hobby shops in my area with demo layouts.  Since my old DC packs continue to work flawlessly, I have time.  Also, Fall brings train shows with operating layouts and experts.  I am not anti-DCC, just on a budget.  I can see the advantage of programming a slow running loco (like Atlas Scale Speed) and a fast runner (like Kato F units) to run together without issues. 

[poliss]

While it's possible to run one DC loco on a DCC system, by a process called zero stretching, it is not recommended as it can burn out the motor, especially when the loco is stationary.
See Mark Gurries page about running DC locos on DCC and a full explanation of zero stretching.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/technical-discussions/dc-loco-on-dcc/short-address-00-dc-control

[Desertdweller]

Poliss:

I can see we are not going to agree, but some of your statements run counter to my understanding of what DCC can do.

My track layout can be most basically described as a double-track dogbone.  With DC block wiring, I have no problem moving two independently-controlled trains from one loop to another, and have done so many times.  I use four crossovers for this purpose.

My powerpack has a thermal circuit breaker that will cut power in case of a short.  But a track that carries no current is not going to short.

I repeatedly read warnings not to leave locos parked on powered DCC track.  A DC loco left this way will develop motor damage.  A DCC loco will keep its headlight on.

If DCC is not subject to voltage drop and dirty track, why then do so many DCC users run buss wires and additional power feeds?  Apparently, many DCC layouts use a block system virtually identical to the DC railroads.  The purpose is to provide full power without voltage drops, and to be able to positively "turn off" tracks.

Uncoupling on the fly is prototypical?  Most railroads have rules against this.
Doing this with passenger trains?  Maybe 100 years ago.  But again, what would I know?

DC helpers?  I used to have an HO railroad that could do this.  You just keep each loco in its own block, hooked to its own throttle.  If you are running the road engine, just release each block as you leave it.  If you are running the helper, just select the block you are about to enter.  It isn't rocket science.

Operating trackside accessories?  These have been around for at least 100 years. They have nothing to do with DCC, although they could be operated by it.

My own grandchildren know better than to run my trains at top speed (nothing close to 300 mph).  If any visitors cannot resist doing that, no, they are not allowed near the railroad.

I've never programmed a locomotive, and have no plans to.  Ever.

DCC locos can run on DC, but I've read (here, maybe) they will require a much higher throttle setting before they start moving.  I would either remove the decoder or wire around it.

The lights on real locos do not dim when they slow down, unless they have a faulty auxiliary generator.
Modern DC model locomotives use LED headlights that do not dim when the locomotive slows down, either.

I share your opinion of the model press.  In the late 60's and through the 70's it was inspiring.  not so anymore.

It all comes down to "what do you want to spend your hobby money on?"

Les

[Albert in N]

Thanks for the input, Guys!  A magazine ad sometimes catches my eye.  Especially when it shows 3 amps of power, plus noted "operates analog and digital".  If it worked (without motor damage), that would save a bunch over a lot of loco conversions or fire-sale prices on older design locos.  Oh well, I will keep my eyes open next train show.  Probably I will buy a neat back up DC power supply in case my one of my old ones goes out.  Hey, my MRC Tech II dual power is right at 20 years old.  I still own an old Atlas train set power pack from my first N scale set purchased by me in 1969.  It comes in handy for DC locomotive trouble shooting, maintenance, and testing.  Maybe power pack longevity plus DCC answers my question about scarcity of new upgrade DC power packs.