Are turnouts power routing or not?

[Rockdweller]

I have read in several message the statement that

"If you are using E-Z Track, you will find that the turnouts are power routing, i.e. that the track which the switch is not pointing to (either straight or diverging) will not receive power, thus causing the train to stop."
example here http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,15960.0.html
and here http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,16858.0.html

Yet the E-Z Track turnouts I have do not cut off the power from the spur line track its not pointing to.

So what's the go?

- I am currently just maually using the flick switch as I won't bother with the AC operation till I make the final layout.
Are they power routing/non-routing if under AC action, not manual?

  My four turnouts came with the 'First railway pack' if that makes any difference which I doubt.

[James in FL]

The n scale turnouts are indeed power routing.
Powering them, or not, does not make a difference.

Can you post a drawing of your track plan showing the location of both your turnouts and your terminal track(s)?

[Rockdweller]

Can you post a drawing of your track plan showing the location of both your turnouts and your terminal track(s)?

yes here is the current layout of the tracks(s).  Both are DC with seperate contollers.

All tracks remain live regardless of where the turnouts are switched..

well I would upload the image which is only 86kb, having just spent the best part of an hour drawing it, but it won't let me, says the upload folder is full.. contact admin..

[Desertdweller]

Check your track to see if there is another track leading into it that might be feeding it.

If you take the cover plate off the bottom of the turnout, you will see a copper rocker switch that has contacts that shift when the switch is operated.  When the switch actuating mechanism is moved to its limits, the rock should contact one pair or the other of contact plates.

If the frog (the X-shaped metal part that the wheels pass through) remains the same polarity all the time, it would create a short circuit when the switch is lined for the opposite route.

To visualize this, study hot the rails line up in the straight and diverging routes.  The frog, which would be the left rail when lined one way, becomes the right rail when the switch is lined the other way.

As per Jaime's suggestion, do you have more than one terminal track?  Could you be feeding power from both routes into the switch?

Les

[Rockdweller]

Check your track to see if there is another track leading into it that might be feeding it.

No only one track, I have each one set up as a simple dead end siding.

Taking this further I removed a turnout, connected it to a rerailer/power section, put two engines on each  of the Y (with a 5" section to hold the locos) engaged power and both loco's moved regardless of where the switch was pointing.
I did this with a second turnout with the same result. - these turnouts are definatly not power routing!

So the question is
a) has Bachmann changed the turnout wiring?
b) do I have some incorrectly wired units (4 of)?
c) is there a difference between N scale units and HO, as in people are refering to HO when then they talk about a power routing feature.

I would like to upload the pic's/ diagrams etc but it still won't accept anything I try. but I think I've made it fairly clear anyway.

If you take the cover plate off the bottom of the turnout, you will see a copper rocker switch that has contacts that shift when the switch is operated.  When the switch actuating mechanism is moved to its limits, the rock should contact one pair or the other of contact plates.

This next to do..but since all four are behaving the same, its not going to be something faulty with all of them, unless its a wiring mistake.

[Desertdweller]

EZ track turnouts have to be power routing, because they use powered frogs.  What happens when a loco passes through the switch, following each route?  Does it stall on the frog?  Does it stall on the frog in one route only?

It is difficult for me to visualize how your problem can happen, if the frog is getting power.  For example, let's say your turnout is a lefthand one.  When the switch is lined for through movement, if you look at the track from the points end (the points are the parts of the rail that move), the frog will be part of the lefthand rail.
For the sake of example, let's say that the lefthand rail is getting positive current flow.

Now work the switch so it is lined for the diverging route, and look at the track.  The frog will now be part of the righthand rail.  Since the lefthand rail is a continuous (but curved) piece, it will still be getting positive current.  But, if the frog were still getting positive current, then both rails of the divergent route would be positive polarity.  If the track farther away from the switch was getting negative polarity somehow, a short circuit would happen when the switch was lined and the train would not move.
If both rails were getting power of the same polarity, the train would not move either.
If the frog were not getting power at all, the situation you describe could only happen if the stub track was getting its power from somewhere else.
And if the frog was getting no power at all, then locos would stall when passing through it.

The power routing mechanism could possibly be hanging up, feeding power only when the switch was lined in one direction.  If so, it would allow locos to pass on one route.  It is also possible (but not likely) that the rocker contact may be 180degrees out of synch with the switch mechanism.  In the case, the frog would be powered, but opposite the required polarity.  If that is happening, then the loco could not get through the switch either.

If there is no way power can get to your stub track, other than through your switch, there must be something seriously wrong with it indeed.  I just can't imagine how, even with a defective switch, you could be having this problem.  I know this is not helpful to you.  Maybe someone else (Bachmann Customer Service?) can help you.

Les

[Rockdweller]

Thanks for your detailed explination Desertdweller.

However we may be talking about two different things when we use the term power routing.

I don't have any non-working turnouts, all works as it should in regards the frog, trains move through fine etc, what I'm questoning is the 'statement/advise' that these turnouts are: "the turnouts are power routing, i.e. that the track which the switch is not pointing to (either straight or diverging) will not receive power, thus causing the train to stop."
This is not what I'm finding at all!..
The four turnouts I recieved in this kit (and the only ones I have in Bachmann E~Z track) 'DO' continue to provide power to the track they are not pointing to.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong, since different brands are wired differently, what I'm saying is it does not match the statements others have made about power routing as above.

So either my four switches are wired differently or the statement is wrong..

Can someone confirm that a N scale Bachmann #6 turnout is meant to 'NOT' supply power to the line its not pointing/switched to?

On the links provided in original post, that was the advise given, yet its not what I have found, so before I start rewiring/cutting my turnouts to get that effect I would like to confirm my turnouts are in fact incorrect. At this stage I feel the advise given may be incorrect.

Thanks

[Desertdweller]

Rock,

Your EZ-track turnout is functioning in that its frog is changing polarity as the route is changed.  If it wasn't doing that, then locos would not be able to go through it on both routes.  At least we know that much.

When locos are set on both tracks leading from the turnout, and power is applied, do they both move in the same direction?  I don't see how this could be possible, as it would require the frog to be both positive and negative at the same time.  If the locos are moving in opposite directions, then you have a short circuit somewhere inside the switch, although I doubt if that would happen with all four turnouts (they would all have to share the same internal defect).

Regardless, you should be able to solve (or at least help) the situation by electrically isolating one or both tracks coming off your turnout.  Do use use a Common Rail wiring system?  This is a system where your tracks are divided into individually controlled sections.  One rail is divided into independently controlled segments with rail gaps or insulated rail joiners.  The other rail is left intact as a common return.

Cut a gap or insert an insulated rail joiner at a rail joint shortly beyond the switch.  Now, you have cut off for sure power downstream of that gap.  Solder a length of wire from both sides of that gap to an electrical switch.  Opening or closing that electrical switch will feed or cut power to that segment of track.

I have an N-scale railroad that includes a large passenger station with double-ended platform tracks.  I have EZ-track switches at each end of the tracks.  Isolating the tracks this way allows me to keep trains parked on those tracks regardless of track switch position or polarity at either end.  My electrical switches are Atlas Selectors, which allow me to link the controlled track to either of two control throttles.

I know I haven't solved your switch problem, but, hopefully, this suggestion will allow you to work around the problem.

Les

[Rockdweller]

Rock,

When locos are set on both tracks leading from the turnout, and power is applied, do they both move in the same direction?

Yes.
.. and as far as I can see that is normal...for instance in a DCC setup where you use only one power block for all, you need to have power to all lines regardless of switch settings. having power routing turnouts which only provided power to one line would mean you 'had to install a common rail wiring system which would defeat the point of using E-Z for a lot of people - ie as a pull down put up train set.

Regardless, you should be able to solve (or at least help) the situation by electrically isolating one or both tracks coming off your turnout.

Cut a gap or insert an insulated rail joiner at a rail joint shortly beyond the switch.  Now, you have cut off for sure power downstream of that gap.  Solder a length of wire from both sides of that gap to an electrical switch.  Opening or closing that electrical switch will feed or cut power to that segment of track.

Which is exactly what I am doing already for all my sidings.

I have an N-scale railroad that includes a large passenger station with double-ended platform tracks.  I have EZ-track switches at each end of the tracks.  Isolating the tracks this way allows me to keep trains parked on those tracks regardless of track switch position or polarity at either end.  My electrical switches are Atlas Selectors, which allow me to link the controlled track to either of two control throttles.

I know I haven't solved your switch problem, but, hopefully, this suggestion will allow you to work around the problem.

Well I think you have perhaps without actualy saying it.  You indicate from this comment that you have to isolate your E-Z track switchs (turnouts) so I take it that the EZ turnouts I have are correct and the statements made by others are in fact incorrect?

What I find strange is that in both those links the person being told the turnouts were power routing and cut power to the line not pointed at, didn't come back and say it didn't work that way.  I almost posted there to say they were given wrong advise, but decided to start this thread instead to try and get to the bottom of it.

For instance if I do the layby siding setup as described here, http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,16858.0.html
both trains still move, so clearly the way the bachmann turnouts work is not as described by Albert in N in that thread.
They would be, using his decription actualy be "insulated frog turnouts"

Its a contradiction - someone has to be wrong, both can't be right unless we are talking about two different things.

[Albert in N]

Just a thought, do you have other turnouts connected to your spur track?  Since EZ Track turnouts are power routing, any track connected to the turnout spur loses all power when the turnout is thrown closing it.   If you build a "yard" onto your spur track, the entire "yard" goes dead when the spur track is closed.  If that is the case, simply add a connector to the spur track and power it with another power pack in sinc with the mainline track (same polarity).  That way you can switch your "yard" separately from operation of the main line.  Note that this does not apply to a passing siding track arrangement, but only to dead end spur tracks.  This is also true with Kato UniTrack.  

[James in FL]

Maybe Bachmann has changed something since I last bought EZ turnouts (about 3-4 years ago)?

Mr. Bachmann... if you're following this thread can you confirm Bachmann has now made available DCC friendly n scale turnouts?

Here's the literature that came packaged with mine;

[Rockdweller]

Just a thought, do you have other turnouts connected to your spur track?  Since EZ Track turnouts are power routing, any track connected to the turnout spur loses all power when the turnout is thrown closing it.

No, no other turnouts, plus I've tested, as mentioned a few posts above, by removing the turnouts from my track and connecting them to a single power srtip all by themselves. They provide power to both lines all the time.

 If you build a "yard" onto your spur track, the entire "yard" goes dead when the spur track is closed.

No it dosn't.  This the point I'm making The statements/ experiance of others is not matching what is being sold now it would appear.

[Rockdweller]

Maybe Bachmann has changed something since I last bought EZ turnouts (about 3-4 years ago)?

Yes that's what I'm thinking. It would make sense on a DCC system

Hi by the way Albert, hope you didn't mind me quoting you as a example of what has been said previously.

Mr. Bachmann... if you're following this thread can you confirm Bachmann has now made available DCC friendly n scale turnouts?

Second that from me..

[James in FL]

Rock,
Just to be sure we are all on the same page here let me ask this.
Early on in the thread you make reference to #6 turnouts.
The old(?) turnouts are not numbered other than the wye, are you using left and right turnouts or are you using the #6 wye?(N44869)
Does the packaging you have state #6 left or #6 right?
The old(?) packaging does not have this.
Can you have a look underside the turnouts and confirm the numbers embossed to be N44861 and N44862, maybe if the turnouts are now DCC friendly Bachmann has changed the part numbers?
Looking at the products page, the #6 wye (old? N44869) states analog operation as well.
I also see new #4 turnouts N44863 left and N44864 right, but both also state analog operation.

I know, silly questions but we don't need any misinformation and we all wish to give good advice.

Like you, I am trying to figure it all out as I think all here are.
Thanks

[Desertdweller]

This is developing into a pretty intreging mystery!

In the example of my station tracks, I isolated them so a loco could be controlled between the switches independently of how the switches were lined.  For example, I can run the depot switcher into a platform track and turn the power off to that track with a Selector.  That track will not receive power, regardless of track switch position.

Another benefit of doing this is, what if the EZ-track switches at both ends were lined for the platform track, but the yard ladders at each end were carrying opposite polarity?  A short circuit would result if the track were not electrically isolated.

I have another situation in the same terminal where there is a long, stub end siding.  It receives power via an EZ-track switch on the main line.  A second EZ-track switch is located on this siding, leading to another stub-end siding.  Using the power-routing feature, I can kill power to the second siding only using the second switch, or kill power to both sidings using the main line switch.

I am not "into" DCC control systems.  But if a turnout has a powered frog, it has to be power-routing to prevent a short circuit.  AC systems, although they rapidly reverse polarity constantly, are still subject to the physics of polarity and can short out.  And if both rails are receiving the same polarity at the same time, the train isn't going to move.

Referring to James' post, I am unfamiliar with EZ-track turnouts other than the standard N-scale ones.  Do your #6 turnouts have powered frogs?  If they do not, then they may or may not be power-routing.  If the frog is not powered, it most likely would not be metal.  If the turnout did not have a powered frog, and was not power-routing, it would explain the situation you are describing.  An example of an unpowered frog, non power-routing turnout would be an Atlas Snap-switch.  The turnouts have plastic frogs, and send power to both routes regardless of how they are lined.  They can do this because, without power going into the frog, there is no polarity problem when the frog goes "from being part of the right-hand rail to being part of the left-hand rail".  The downside to these is that locos can stall out on the unpowered frog, and additional wiring is needed to isolate divergent routes beyond the switch.

Please keep us informed on your progress.

Les