B&O Power (Suggestions)

[pdlethbridge]

diesels??? Shame on you

[J3a-614]

Some more photos:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=142391&nseq=278

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=141630&nseq=280

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=141629&nseq=281

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=134214&nseq=294

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=131214&nseq=304

Taken from the footbridge that ran partway on the roof of the roundhouse (out of sight to the right):

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=130998&nseq=305

I like the way things used to be:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=66104&nseq=369

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=57107&nseq=382

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=55532&nseq=386

Late rebuild of a P-7--prototype of the Mantua 4-6-2:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65626&nseq=370

Enjoy.

[pdlethbridge]

Well, at least you showed some steam.

[jonathan]

Thanks, again, sir.  Some great photos to look at.  I keep getting more ideas than I will ever be able to build.

Just when I thought there was no prototype for the weird font ends that Mantua put on their steamers, you go and find a photo of those crazy handrails and the weird lump that sits on the pilot.  I'm sure there's some safety, or aerodynamic reason behind it, but it sure didn't enhance the beauty at all.

Guess I took mine back a few years:

She needed a little cosmetic surgery.  Now if I could only learn to paint and weather...

Thanks again,

Jonathan

[J3a-614]

Glad you love it all.

That lump is a stone shield for front frame mounted air compressors, a common location for pumps on later engines (or rebuilt ones, as in a P-7c or P-7d, or a Reading T-1 4-8-4) that also had cast frames.  The shields B&O used on the rebuilt P-7s were their own.  Baldwin used a semi-cylindrical shape with a half-domed top (see B&O's EM-1 2-8-8-4, or a number of Baldwin designed 4-8-4s, including those of the Atlantic Coast Line, Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac, and the Santa Fe, the latter represented by a Bachmann model).  Lima used a pair of angular-looking shields (see NKP 2-8-4s), while Alco used a flat shield with two little angled tops (UP 4-8-4s, 4-6-6-4s, and 4-8-8-4s).  Of course, there would be exceptions, usually in the case of engines that were ordered as copies of locomotives orignially designed by someone else (L&N 2-8-4s built by Lima in 1949 that were copies of engines originally designed and built by Baldwin in the early 1940s).

Next reading assignment--Model Railroader's Locomotive Cyclopedia, Vol. 1, Steam Locomotives (a B&O Big 6 is in there, if I remember correctly), or check out Hundmann Publications' Locomotive Cyclopedia, Vols. 1 and 2 (which includes EM-1 2-8-8-4s, and a B&A 4-6-6T).  And while I haven't had the chance to study the Hundmann books properly, it is likely that, like the MR book, that it has a section on locomotive appliances (air compressors, injectors, feedwater heaters, stokers, etc.), that also shows proper practice in regard to piping this stuff up for those extreme detail hounds.

For me as a former engineering student who had unfortunate problems with calculus, this stuff is fascinating.

A site with a few photos that help illustrate these shields:

http://parkengines.railfan.net/

NKP 2-8-2 , built by Lima, based on the USRA light 2-8-2; note that this engine has long-frame Baker valve gear (also used by NYC 4-6-4, C&O 2-6-6-6s, and B&O Big Sixes):

http://parkengines.railfan.net/IL/images/pages/NKP639.html

The photo further down of the Illinois Central 4-8-2 doesn't enlarge (blast!), but the engine does illustrate that the IC didn't bother with stone shields!

http://parkengines.railfan.net/IL/content.shtml

I need to get busy on my own layout!

[jonathan]

Occasionally, I see B&O 2-10-2s by IHC.  Do they pull well?  I probably wouldn't be pulling more than 30 cars, but it would be nice if more were possible.  I think I'm within the bounds of conduct.  Not looking for disparaging information... just wondering about it's upper limit.

R,

Jonathan

[J3a-614]

Should have remembered this group--the 40 T-3 4-8-2s, homebuilt by Mt. Claire using rebuilt boilers from older 4-6-2s and 2-8-2 in P-1aa and various Q-1 classes between 1942 and 1948; No. 5594 would be the last steam locomotive built at Mt. Claire.  As near as I can figure, these engines ran mostly west of Cumberland on the Chicago line in passenger service to Pittsburgh and in fast freight service in Ohio.  Oh, these engines have 70-inch drivers and long-frame Baker valve gear--same as Bachmann's USRA light and heavy 4-8-2s.

The first T-3 on an excursion in Ohio in 1955:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5555s.jpg

The air compressors are visible behind the large shield in this view:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5556s.jpg

Left side view:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5573.jpg

Other shots:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5581s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5591s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5561sa.jpg

In the late 1950s, the growing diesel roster was about to outgrow the two- and three-digit number series it was assigned to, and the steam roster was continuing to shrink, so the road went into a general renumbering scheme in which all steamers  were renumbered into a three digit series and the diesels got 4-digit numbers.  That is why the former No. 5562 now wears No. 704 in this photo at Butler, Pa.:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s704r.jpg

This photo brings sadness to me as not only is the engine out of service and awaiting scrapping--but it was photographed in 1961, well after the end of steam operations, well after the establishment of the museum in Baltimore.  The railroad that preserved so much also let way too much of its later steam glory slip away.

Some other photos:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s6177abn.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo524s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/boEM1.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo650s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo657s.jpg

In 1960:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s670.jpg

In 1958:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo675s.jpg

These next 4-8-2 (class T-4) shots are for P. D. Lethbridge; they are ex-Boston & Maine Baldwin 4-8-2s (4100 series), purchased by the B&O in 1947 (and illustrating Baldwin's approach to air compressor shields):

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo751s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam7.html

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo755s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5650sa.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5650s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5662s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo5660s.jpg

P. D. Lethbridge and Rye Guy will like the idea that this is one that did make it into the museum at Baltimore:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s600.jpg

Photo page links for reference:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam1.html

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo.html

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/

One last link:

http://www.borhs.org/

That ought to do it for this thread.  Enjoy.

[pdlethbridge]

Those T4's were worth their weight in gold. The B&O ran the wheels off them.It's a shame that none of the 3 railroads that had those 4-8-2's saved any. The Lehigh and Hudson River units were an exact copy of the B&M R1D's that had the centipede tenders. The B&O never had any of the engines with the centipede tenders
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/lhr12s.jpg
http://abpr.railfan.net/july99/07-29-99/bxm4113steamatmechanicvilleny1-7-56.jpg
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo755s.jpg

[J3a-614]

Johathan wondered about the IHC 2-10-2.  Reportedly it runs quite well, but the design can best be described as generic; closest thing it resembles is an AT&SF engine with a C&O cab.  What you could do if you were ambitious enough would be to pick up one of these engines and a Rvarossi/AHM B&O Big Six and graft the Big Six boiler, cylinders, trailing truck, and tender onto the IHC mechanism (which I seem to recall also has the long-frame Baker valve gear of the Big Six).  At least one commercial custom builder will do this for you for a price; links follow:

http://eddystonelocomotives.com/

http://eddystonelocomotives.com/BOSteamPower.htm

http://eddystonelocomotives.com/bigsixfix.htm

http://eddystonelocomotives.com/howtoorder.htm

http://eddystonelocomotives.com/orderform20.htm

Alternately, you could just go with double-headed 2-8-2s.  That's what the B&O used east of Brunswick, Md. because of the short turntable at the Riverside roundhouse in Baltimore.  Bigger power did go there, including EM-1 2-8-8-4s for overhauls, but did not run there on a regular basis because to turn the longer power required the use of a wye track, and that in turn tied up a part of the main line!  On the other hand, why not improve operating efficiency with bigger steam power?  After all, a proper railroad uses black locomotives that pull nice long trains and burn West Virginia coal!

[jonathan]

J3a,

No one will ever accuse me of being a rivet counter. If you look at my Mike, I built it based on the Q-10a-c class of Mikes, for the sole reason they had a headlight centered on the front of the smoke box.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam6.html
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo4713s.jpg

I numbered it after my birth year because I chose details from all the different Mikes, instead of a specific prototype. If I liked the detail, and it was easy to model, on it went (even it was actually a Pennsy detail, God forbid).  I put more effort into making my Mike run well, than I did in detailing it.

So, if you say the IHC is a good runner, that's good enough for me.  I would probably look for some superdetails that would be appropriate and personalize the IHC a bit. Buying two big sixes to make one correct big six is not exactly economical (still have some young ones in the house).

I also like your idea of double heading Mikes for the long haul to the shoreline.  I wonder what my chances would be of finding another 37 year old Mantua, that's in good enough shape to rebuild?  I notice Bachmann makes a painted/undecorated Mike that I could probably personalize, B&O style, to match my Mantua. Bet it runs quite well. For that matter, many companies seem to produce Mikes. They are never in short supply. My wallet could chose the Mike.

If I can match the speeds (and I probably can), I wonder if a Connie and a Mike were ever double headed? Bet I could pull 30+ cars with that combo.  I had intended to use the Connies to run the coal to M&K Junction, and have the big steam take over to the coast.   The little steam, or early diesels, were to be at the mine itself.

Big plans for a 120 sq ft layout.  I may have to compromise a bit.  I am probably close to a spaghetti bowl the way it is now.  I have four separate loops of trackage to connect. There was a famous modeler, who talked about designing a transportation system rather than a clever layout. Probably should have paid more attention to the words than the pictures.

Thanks for making me think some more.  I do enjoy these exercises, especially when its about history, not math.

Regards,

Jonathan

[J3a-614]

Were Connies and Mikes doubleheaded?  You betcha!  Actually, just about anything might have been doubleheaded with anything else at one time or another, depending on conditions.  I've seen photos of 2-10-2s with 4-8-4s (AT&SF), 2-10-4s and 2-6-6-6s (C&O--likely a power move to transfer engines rather than to used all that tractive effort), 2-8-2s and 2-10-4s (C&O, Powell Hill outside Columbus, Ohio), 2-8-8-2s and 4-8-4s or 4-8-2s (AT&SF again), 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 (B&O, passenger trains in West Virginia on the West End), 2-10-2 and 4-6-2 or 4-8-2 (B&O passenger train about to go up Sand Patch), 2-8-8-2 and 2-6-6-4 (N&W, most famously on Blue Ridge), 4-8-2 and 4-8-4 (AT&SF and Southern Pacific--and the 4-8-4 was a Daylight), 4-6-2 and 4-8-4 (SP excursion at high speed some years ago in California)--you could almost go on forever. . .even 2-10-2 and passenger diesels (AT&SF and B&O).

[jonathan]

Good news, then.  I may already have all the power I need.  Will have to test these engines to match speeds.  With a DCC and a DC connie, one of them should be reasonably close in speed to the Mantua.  Of course I could always pull the decoder out of the one connie to match the DC connie and just double head them, but that's not my first choice (would look nice though).

I already have enough double diesels to pull anything I can couple to them.  Here's a plug for Bachmann, by the way.  My two baby trainmasters will run as smooth, and pull as strong, as some other company's engines, that are quite a bit more expensive.  I have been very impressed.  They just needed a tiny amount of tweaking to get them to purr for me.  Love 'em, as I do my connies.  They (connies) are as quiet and smooth as any engine I have seen run.  Talk about getting your money's worth.

Regards,

Jonathan

[J3a-614]

Glad I could help.

A funny story about the black 4-8-2 doubleheading with the orange and red Daylight streamliner up Tehachape (sp?) in the 1940s--the train was struggling up the notorious grade at low speed, and a raifan noticed a couple of older ladies riding in the seats ahead of him.  They were commenting about the slow progress up the hill, when one of them was able to look through the window around a curve at the struggling locomotives.  "It's no wonder we're moving so slowly," she said to her companion.  "Our nice streamliner isn't just pulling our train, it's pushing that old engine, too."

This is supposed to be a true story.  I don't claim to be good enough to make it up!

I've used this before, perhaps you've seen them, but these video clips of N&W steam from the 1950s explain a lot of the appeal of mainline mountain railroading.  Compound 2-8-8-2s, 2-6-6-4s, auxiliary tanks, pushers. . .all here. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV8rA3UE-lc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-6FKD0pr0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y__yR95DSwc

This next one  is a slow loader, but it's a good movie, about the jobs railroads do. . .it's still the N&W, but it could have been any road at the time. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mXo_ya-kAE&feature=related

Other video links:

http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=608

http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=607

Enjoy.

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Late rebuild of a P-7--prototype of the Mantua 4-6-2:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=65626&nseq=370

Gosh, those P-7s were beautiful locomotives!

P. D. Lethbridge and Rye Guy will like the idea that this is one that did make it into the museum at Baltimore:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s600.jpg

I like it, too. I've been meaning to "remount" a Mantua Rogers 4-6-0 boiler on a Mantua 2-6-0 running gear as a "homage" to #600 but haven't gotten around to it.

I say "remount" because I did this once, but then I restored the boiler to its original running gear. I don't remember why. 

[J3a-614]

More video links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttgguqpVzSg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyoOTgqM76Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNn99V4OpAQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQEGHFSYW8c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ore_RPx_txs&feature=related

Not all of these are 100% B&O, but all have some B&O footage.

Enjoy.