Scot

I do like the look of your digitally bashed 4-4-0 with the taller cab - to me it is how a small 2 foot or 30 inch gauge loco should look. But I am familiar with such small locos, take for example the 2 foot gauge loco "Cairns" at the Illawarra light Railway Museum near Woollongong, NSW, Australia. See www.ilrms.com.au/cairns.htm Quite a different loco I know (it's an 0-6-0) but note the cab height relative to the rest of the loco. The proportions of the Bachmann loco and your version with the higher cab seem right to me.

I can appreciate those who are more familiar with larger 4-4-0s wanting one that looks like them. Whether your original digitally bashed loco (with the lower cab) would look OK alongside other ON30 locos is hard to tell unless some-one actually makes one and photos it together with other ON30 locos. I thought the issue should be raised for any-one contemplating such a conversion to consider, although the answer is up to each person, on the principle that if it looks right to you, it is right.

Hamish

My concern with this is that, if made and run alongside other ON30 models, it may  look under scale i.e. it could look like a smaller scale model of a larger loco and not a 1:48 scale model of a small prototype. Smaller locomotives do not have the same proportions as larger locos, as you indicated. It looks fine by itself, but would it look odd with other ON30 equipment?

Hamish

Given that Bachmann is now considering issues relating to Williams now seems a good time to express views as to where Bachmann should take Williams.

As I see it Bachmann will want to preserve Williams base of moderately priced 3 rail products, much of it "tradional" in style, i.e often a bit under scale and designed for tight curves. However there is I think scope for a small range of scale proportioned, more detailed, locomotives. I am unclear as to whether any of the existing Williams products fit this description. I note that the other major American O brands have both "tradional" and scale proportioned models so there is a market there. Scale proportioned models could also work for ON30 modellers who wish to add standard gauge.

I would like scale proportioned locos to include some steam, the Richmond 4-4-0 from HO strikes me as a good choice for a stating point. It seems, as far as I know, a bit different from other locos currently available for O and would also be a good loco for a mixed O/On30 layout as it is not too big for a line joining with a backwoods narrow gauge set up.

Ideally the scale proportioned locos would be available in 2 as well as 3 rail, 2 rail would broaden the market, and I suspect most ON30ers would prefer 2 rail as ON30 is two rail.

As I indicated however, I would see "tradional" 3 rail still being the major part of the product line.

Bachmann may want to introduce DCC or someother form of more advanced control, this would seem to fit with general market trends. However, if so, please also make versions without expensive additions - at least part of Williams current appeal is that they offer relatively well priced products without fanccy control systems.

I would like to see more O scale buildings etc. Relatively inexpensive but a bit more detailed than current Plasticville. These could appeal to both Williams and ON30 buyers. Possibilities include industrial (sawmill, mine, factory,(brewery decorated for the ON30 reefer roads?)  a new small depot and etc. 

On track, I see little need for Bachmann to introduce 2 rail track as this is available from other manufactures and I am assuming that 2 rail, if introduced, would be a smallish part of the total range. 3 rail track will no doubt continue. I would love to see dual gauge 2 raIL O and ON30 track  but I doubt very much that it will be made - such track looks quite different from dual standard gauge/3 foot prototype track such as in the USA although it does look like dual gauge standard/30 inch gauge track that existed in quite a number of countries, but not I think the USA.

Just my thoughts

Hamish

Some interesting information can be found at
www.irfca.org/faq/faq-gauge.html

India had considersably more 30 inch gauge than 2 foot. Metre gauge seems to have come about because India was looking at adopting the metric system, although that didn't happen then. As well as dual broad gauge (5 foot 6 inches) and mtere there were examples of dual broad and narrow (30 inch) and metre and 30 inch track. In one case a metre gauge loco hauled 30 inch gauge stock on dual gauge track.  That would be interesting in model form, and prototypical as well!

Hamish

Dear Bach Man

Thanks for the reply. I only asked as you had indicated (in your post on the NMRA show announcements) that there might be some. Given the NMRA announcements I was not really expecting anything.

Are there going to be any new photos of forthcoming items posted in the photo gallery?

Hamish

Dear Bach Man

Are there going to be any announcements of new products at iHobby, which is on this weekend? (I am in Australia, it is Sunday night here, but sometime Saturday there, I think.)

I am not expecting anything very much, as a number of major new announcements were made fairly recently, but I understood the next annpouncements were to be at the iHobby show.

Yours with a very mild dose of anticipation

Hamish

Terry's layout looks better than I would have expected. It does appear, at least in the photo, to create something of a forced perspective. The higher smaller scales behind do give the impression of being further away than they really are, this helps one accept the scene. I note that the tracks are hidden at the rear so that from the front you don't see a larger train behind a smaller one. 

So something along those lines is a possibility. Also I agree that, if it looks OK to you it is OK, whatever others, including myself, might think.

Hamish

You want one layout, with both HO and N, together on a 4 by 6 board?

I guess it could fit, but what would it look like?  An HO layout can be fitted into 4 by 6 although it is not large, If it is to be an oval, the oval will need to run essentially around the outside. This could leave room for N gauge in the middle, but the appearance of the two together, given the size difference, would look odd, too say the least. What scale scenery and buildings would you use? Of course the N gauge track could represent narrow gauge (HON30) but this would require HON30 locos and trains.

You could build two small shelf switching layouts back to back, one HO and one N with a scenic barrier between them so that only one was seen from each side. I guess the same approach could give a small oval N layout with a narrow (1 foot wide) HO switching layout (scenically hidden) on one side. Two ovals would mean something like 4 by 4 for the HO and 4 by 2 for the N, with a scenic division in between. 4 by 4 is small for an HO layout, essentially little more than a circle. A basic train set oval might fit, but little expansion outside the oval would be possible.

I recall seeing an article about a layout that had HO in the foreground and N in the background, representing the track in the distance, a forced perspective effect. I don't recall the size of the layout. This would require  only the front part  of the layout to be visible from the viewing side (HO appearing behind the N would destroy the forced perpective effect). I suspect that this would be difficult to do and make it look at all realistic, although it has been done. Whether 4 by 6 is larger enough for a convincing result I don't know.

Just my thoughts

Hamish

Bachmann does make the large scale 3 truck Shay in some roadnames without sound. This includes painted unlettered, so one option is to decorate it yourself if you don't want the sound version.

I hope Bachmann never makes a locomotive with expensive additional features, e.g. DCC and Sound, without a less equipped version also being available. That some roadnames will only be available with the additional features, and others without, is I expect inevitable and personally I don't object to that as redecorating is possible. As my line is my own fictional creation, re-decorating is for me always required.

Hamish

So far Bachmann has not forced people to buy expensive features they may not want. Where locomotives are DCC equipped these locos also operate on straight DC without alteration. The decoders fitted are low cost and appear to add little or nothing to the cost of the loco. The DCC and Sound versions do cost rather more but, so far at least, versions without sound are also made. I hope Bachmann keeps up this approach, including for Williams.  (I know 3 rail AC is a bit different, I am not sure whether the DCC for no extra cost approach is possible for it.)

It will be interesting to see where Bachmann takes the Williams line. One possibility would be a more scale line of products, possibly available in 2 as well as 3 rail. Willams at one time made such locos. This could have some appeal to ON30 modellers wishing to add standard gauge to their narrow gauge empires as well as others. However if such a line were introduced I would expect it to be additional to the  Williams line of traditional 3 rail and not a replacement for it. I am sure that Bachmann bought Williams in order  to get a slice of the traditional 3 rail market.

Hamish

Converting HO items to ON30 has a long and honourable history. A large item in HO can make a small item in ON30. However the difference in scale means that very rarely could an HO scale item (unless badly overscale) be used without alteration. In some cases conversion can be simple, such as with the Tichy ore cars, in other cases a lot of work would be required.  A kit is available (Boulder Valley Models) to convert the Bachmann HO climax to ON30, it results in a considerable smaller model, about 14 tons compared with the original HO model being of a 50 ton prototype. The Bahmann ON30 climax is a 28 ton locos. Of course the converted loco looks very different from the HO original.

Hamish

To return to the original question, 5 foot by 8 foot in HO is certainly possible. A lot depends on what you wish to model, a Big Boy with a prototypical length trains is out of the question, mainline classic  passenger expresses my also look odd. But branchlines, shortlines and etc have  been done very well in 5' by 8' or less. As for sets, if you are into steam the Bachmann Spectrum Frontiersman would be a good choice. The 2-8-0 is a fine medium size loco, good for a smaller layout.

Hamish.

See
www.pwrr.org/prototype/mow/tank_trainer.html

Hamish

As Ken says thay are unlikely to look right. The issue with using HO scale cars as is in ON30 is that, even if the size is OK (for a much smaller prototype), the details such as ladders and etc. will look wrong. The proportions could also be  an issue. Converting them by fitting O scale parts and etc. is one possibility. As an alternative consider some of the kits available for ON30 if you are looking for something other than the Bachmann stock. Boulder Valley Models make a 15 foot steel ore car that might meet you needs.  There are quite a few kitmakers with ON30 items out there.

Hamish

Yes I am in Australia.

I too was surprised by the comments suggesting ordinary vans were commonly used for explosives in the USA, I do not know why American practice was different from UK and Australian practice. From what I can tell Australian practice was similar to the UK, at least I have seen photos of metal cladded explosive vans. The Victorian Railways 30 inch gauge Walhalla line had a van that was a regular van but had two compartments. One was for explosives (for the mines) and this had metal cladding.

Hamish