Quote from: Curmudgeon on November 22, 2007, 09:14:39 PM
...Part of the OEM agreement, or so I have been told by several sources, is that Bachmann is not a Soundtraxx dealer.
This is why they were factory installed.
...

OK, so the board is OEM'ed from Soundtraxx.
And the motors are from Mabuchi
and the lights are from GE
and the connectors are from AMP
and the gears are from china.

SO WHAT?

I got the loco from a Bachmann dealer.
I paid CASH for it a year ago, Including over a hundred dollars extra for the version with the sound.

It is a Bachmann product, the loco, the motors, the sound, the lights.

All with a lifetime warranty.

Now, It is supposed to arrive next week, but without the sound.

I did not get a refund. I paid for sound and DCC, I would not even have bought the loco at all if it did not have sound and DCC.

I'm sure Bachmann must have a supply of returned locos that the get parts for to repair these things.

Now, I realize, that Bachmann did not sell me one with sound, the dealer did.
I realize that the dealer MAY have gotten the wrong locos from Bachmann or maybe they ORDERED the wrong locos. I don't know who's fault it was!

So, I would not expect Bachmann to provide free repairs to my loco for something that MAY not have been their fault.

However, I PAID for a loco with sound, the sound does not work. The loco is therefore defective. Since I have a defective loco I would like parts to repair it or I would like to send the loco to Bachmann for repair. If Bachmann decided the parts are not covered under warranty, then fine, I will pay for the sound card a second time. That is just the way it is, sometimes the manufacturer determines the repairs are not covered and the user has to pay. Fine.

The fact is, I paid for sound, don't you think that I should get a loco with sound? Don't you think that if it came with sound and it burned out, that I should be able to have it repaired. What in the world would Soundtraxx care? Does the OEM agreement say that Bachmann can't repair their own locos? I don't think so.

I pre-ordered a K27. Is it going to come without a motor. Or light bulbs, or tender. where does this nonsense end?

Thanks, TOC

I don't plan to put a Tsunami card in the shay, just the Bachmann board that mine is missing. As I understand it, there is no Soundtrax Tsunami board for a LS shay, so the Bachmann board (with Tsunami technology) will have to do. That is the part number I'm looking for. Could not find that on the web either. I suppose the shay will come with a printed parts list, but I wanted to get one on order as soon as possible as the shay will be here (supposedly) next week.

Bob

Quote from: japasha on November 22, 2007, 06:17:21 PM
Bob,

.. I have been ordering from St. Aubin's in Ilinois. ...
...Call them and talk to them. ...
... get UPS or FedEx tracking on what ever you have shipped. ...

That's 1021 miles from here, A little father than I can manage in a weekend.

Tracking and insurance is one of the reasons I don't do mail order.

Trackiing only tells you they think they delivered it somewhere, or it is lost.
Even when you insure a $1,200.00 mogul, it can be limited if the item is a collectable. I was denied the claims for the lost locos because LGB's web site says their trains are collectable. It's no fun getting 100$ per incident when you order a couple locos. If they deliver it to someone, who signs the return reciept with a scribble, you won't even get the $100.00. Dealing with the adjusters is such a headach that when I order parts, and keep them under 50$, I just reorder and don't bother with the claims or waste my money on insurance.
Too bad about Knoxville, that is not too far out of the way for me, In fact, I'll be just outside of Chattanooga this coming Monday.

I tried to find a drawing, but the link (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/dwg/dwgs/G824X-2.PDF) results in a page not found.)

So, it turns out the three truch Shay with DCC sound  I bought over a year ago is finally going to arrive, but without the DCC or sound. 

Three questions:
(1) Is the wiring in the non DCC shay identical to the one I ordered? Will a Tunami just plug in?

(2) What is the Bachman part number for the Tsunami?

(3) Will it b easy to install? In particular. If I have somone unbox the loco and set it on the rails for me,. will it be posible to remove whatever cover and gain access to the connections without removing the loco from the rails. I ask, because I will need to hire somone to do the install if the loco needs to be rolled over, or build some sort of jig to clamp onto the loco to rotate it if I'm to avoid breaking off all the detailed parts.

I travel a great deal in  Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina. I've located a dozen large scale dealers in that area, but almost none carry any Bachmann LS trains.

Dealing with them is a nightmare.

First, I should say, I DO NOT DO MAIL-ORDER. The first year in the hobby, I did, and lost 3 Locos, and 4 $250.00 passenger cars to the shipping process. Wife said the "D" word if I ever mail-ordered anything over $50.00 again.

I don't have many Bachmann locos. Mainly because they are so hard to find. I got Big Haulers in sets. I found a 2 truck shay at a train show in Birmingham. A very old Lynn was found in a small shop, they had it on display for years before I found it. I found a trolley at the Bachmann booth in the SE train show 2 years ago. Several others were bought used.

Now we come to the three truck shay.

I am unable to handle any big heavy loco well enough to convert it to DCC, specially ones with small delicate parts. I was never able to perform the lubrication procedure on my old 2 truck shay without breaking lots of little things, so when Bachmann announce the three truck Shay, WITH DCC INSTALLED, I just had to have one. The only place that had one was a mail order dealer 600 miles from my house. I took a day off from work and drove to SC. to see what he had. I ended up buying 12,000.00 dollars worth of locos that day, including one Bachmann, an undecorated 3 truck shay with DCC sound. Unfortunately, the van was full, I was running late, and my Shay was buried in the middle of a pallet of newly arrived Shays and would take a long time to get out.

I paid for the Shay and agreed to return a month later to pick it up.

Then I had trouble getting the dealer to answer the phone. I took another day off to visit the dealer again, only to find the dealer closed.

More calls, left messages, no return calls.

Another 600 mile trip, the dealer's warehouse was empty, abandoned and no forwarding address.

In the following months I tracked them down, found they were relocated into a new place of business and had my Shay. They said they would ship it. I reluctantly agreed.

It never showed up.
Twice more, I reached them, they made an excuse, said they would ship it, and twice more it was a no-show. That was August and September. the loco had been purchased for over a year.

I  finally got through to them on the phone in November. They said they discovered that all their Shays turned out to be ones without the sound decoder. They called and tried to get me one direct from Bachmann, but the ones with sound are no longer available. They are shipping me the undecorated one without sound or DCC. So far it has not arrived.

Sadly, dealers here in the deep south are on a shoe-sting budget. Many have had one or two Bachmann cars, but I've managed to clean them out. They do not re-order. They will special order if you pre- pay. And, that has draw backs too.  This is certainly no reflection on Bachmann, as the same thing has happened when trying to get other brands of LS. A dealer in Montgomery folded right after I prepaid for four Aristo heavyweight passenger cars.

I suddenly realized that a major reason for most of my cars and locos being one brand, is that that brand is carried by large retail stores who can afford the high priced line and stock them.

Now, finally, My question:

I'm sure there are plenty of shops I have not visited in my limited 3-1/4 state area. Where can I find large reputable shops that carry Bachmann locos in stock. Ones that I can see and perhaps have test run on  the shops track? The easiest to get to would be in Alabama followed by  the panhandle of Florida, Georgia, then Mississippi or South Carolina.

By the way I prepaid for a K27, MAIL-ORDER, but don't tell my wife. Hope it doesn't take as long to get here as the three truck Shay.


B0B

Hi again Jim.

As always , you make some very good observations and comments.

I have one Annie, and one Big-hauler. The Big Hauler is 10 to 12 years old and was part of a set that I think included two circus cars. It was my very first "G" loco. It ran on DC for a year, was converted to batter/RC, then converted to DCC for about 2 years. When I took it out of service due to UV
deterioration, I removed the decoder and converted it back to it's original DC. It has been on the DCC powered display .track for at least the last 5 years. And Yes, it still runs and does not heat up while on the DCC track. I should have mentioned that I run the Display track at the 12 volt setting on the Digitrax 5 amp command station to reduce the brightness of the lights. However, Locos outside run at 22 volts and do not seem any warmer when just sitting.

Yes, The fuse should be in the loco. .

I have the LGB Chloe, and it's sister, the Olmana, and 12 of it's cousins, both steam and diesel Field railway locos. All of them have the same motor. I have had one of those motors apart. It is not the Famous LGB Bueler 7 pole ball bearing motor found in other LGB locos, but instead, a smaller 5 pole  iron core motor with bronze bushings. Many of mine are no longer in service but still have the decoders, the field locos are not displayed on powered track because they have no lights. The only ones that have lights are the Chloe, Olmana and two of the field locos that I added lights too. They are still in service and are outside. So, as you can see, I don't have any long term use of non DCC Chloe locos, as compared to the Hauler or Annie.
I DO have two brand new Field loco diesels that have not yet been converted to DCC. They have been outside on the 22 volt layout and are powered by DCC.  These have the exact same motors as the Chloe.  While it is rather chilly here today, (about 50 last night) I just checked them, and, they seem stone cold. I didn't open them up to feel the motor, so it is possible that the motors are a little warmer than the outside of the motor block. They have been out there for a couple months sitting on DCC powered track.

So, we seem to agree that older Big Haulers sometimes have motors burn out, on DC or DCC. Each of us has had a motor fail in a hand car, one on DC one on DCC but both of them on power supplies larger than 2.5 amps.

Neither of these two facts seem to point to DCC used to run DC locos as the culprit. All of my research shows that this is still just an urban legend, It's history seems to be from the days of pulsed DC packs using SCR's where the pulse rate was much slower than today's DCC. I just don't see any way that a "G" scale loco could have a motor that has such low impedance that at DCC frequencies it would draw enough current to heat up. But then, maybe I'm wrong.

Right now I still have nearly a dozen un-chiped locos waiting for enough run time to convince me they will fill the role I intend for them. This is somewhat normal for me. I usually run a loco a month or two prior to doing a conversion. Usually, that means new locos wait while till the current test subject has proved it's worth. Nearly every loco that did not come with a built in decoder has run at least 10 hours and spent a minimum of a couple weeks sitting sitting on DCC prior to conversion. I have never had a single problem related to motor burnout or over heating when trying out new locos using DCC and pulse stretching. I consider the ability to run a single unconverted loco on DCC to be one of the most valuable features of DCC. Since I eliminated all the old block wiring, switching back to DC to test a loco is not practical for me because all the decoder equiped locos would convert to DC ans start running at the same time. Using loco 0 pulse stretching lets me test a new loco while the rest of the locos are still running normally.

It may be archived but the last good discussion on DCC pulse stretching was  was on the Digitrax Yahoo forum.

Quote from: Jim Banner on November 20, 2007, 09:34:13 AM
Some large scale dc locomotives should never be run on the DCC version of dc.  These include certain LGB locomotives which have coreless motors.  Some physically small motors do not do well on DCC type dc.  I personally smoked a Bachmann hand car in less than 5 minutes on a DCC track.  And if you use any Big Haulers or other locomotives with poorly ventilated motors, you should consider installing fans to prevent motor burnout. 

Jim, could you please tell me what LGB locos have coreless motors?

I have run all my non-factory installed LGB locos on DCC as loco 0 for at least some period of time prior to installing a decoder. None have heated up or even become slightly warm while just sitting on the rails. Some were run on DCC for months prior to me getting around to chipping them. I leave my outside track powered 24-7 and there is usually one DC loco on it all the time. I don't take the locos in at night and often don't chip a loco until I'm satisfied that it pulls well and runs smooth.

I also have an older DCC command station powering my display shelves where I store some locos that are just not suitable for my outdoor railroad. These include several without decoders. The locos include Bachmann, Aristo-craft and USAT. Analog (unconverted locos) from Bachmann include a Big hauler, an Annie, a 2-truck Shay and a open trolley. Some of these locos have been there for over 5 years. I keep them powered by DCC so the lights are on. It makes them look nicer on display, especially at night when they also serve as a night-light for my office. I just checked all of them and the only heat being generated is from a couple of the headlights. (I also noticed I burned out two bulbs.) I went out to the garden shed and fetched a throttle, and plugged it into the spare command station.Selecting loco 0 and nudging up the throttle a little, all of the locos moved or slipped their wheels, (I have wheel stops on all of them to prevent accidents). So, none of them ave burned out, even after 5 years on DCC.

There was a recent discussion on a DCC forum about this subject. It seems to be a common Urban myth that running a DC loco on DCC will burn it out. In theory, a SMALL coreless dc motor, like those used in "N" scale should over heat and melt the glue used to hold the motor windings in shape. In reality, Nobody could say that it was DCC that made this happen. Most locos that had failed on DCC without decoders also had a reputation for failing with decoders and on plain old DC. After a rather heated discussion, it became apparent that some testing needed to be done. Some reported that a typical HO locos , running at 12 volts in free air with no load got fairly  warm, the same motor with DCC applied but not running generated heat that was barely measurable, less than one degree. Running on stretched DCC at the same speed as 12 volts DC raised the motor to the same temperature as running it on DC at 12 volts. Many were surprised that there was almost no discernible difference.

By the way, I USED to have a Bachmann hand car. I should have known better than running it on a LGB Jumbo 5 amp DC supply, Having more amperage available than that provided by the Bachmann starter set was not a good idea. One little bind or one sudden stop and 5 amps will fry most small motors. So, my question to you is, was it the DCC signal that burned out your hand car, or was it because you did not have a 1 amp fuse in line with your 10 amp system?

Hi Karl.
I hate to disagree with Jim, but, you CAN run DCC and DC at the same time.

If you are wired for DC, even if you have switches to kill some sidings, just insert a DCC command station\booster between your DC power controller, and all the track.

Turn the DC all the way up, select locos 0 to run any DC loco, and then select loco 3 to run your new DCC shay.

You can still control any one DC loco, park the others on isolated sidings just like before.

Advantages:
All the passenger cars and the selected DC loco lights will be on full brightness no matter what speed you run the DC loco.
You will have full control over all the special sounds and lighting in the new shay.

As to my recommendation, Buy an 8 amp Digitrax DCS200 combination command station/booster, (about 249$)

Also, you will need a throttle, either the Digitrax UT4 (about 65$) or a DT400 (about 145$) You really don't need anything else.

The reasons I recommend these:
1 - the command station puts out 160 watts.
2 - the command station supports DC locos as loco 0
3 - the throttle is a good match for the features in the Tsunami sound card. IE You can "play" the whistle simply by pressing lighter or harder on the whistle button. The Digitrax and Tsunami cards both support the same advanced functions (like feedback) that you may want to take advantage of in the future.
4 -  both of the above throttles will work great when tethered and placed next to your existing control panel.

Bob

Let's hope Bachmann re-issues the Climax, this time in a DCC/battery/RC ready version.

I too need an unlettered Climax.


Sorry about your loss. Hope you get it back.

This is all I could find on the various versions.
83093 D&RGW #453 with Doghouse
83094 D&RGW #464.
83095 D&RGW with Flying Grande #463.
83096 Rio Grande Southern with Sunrise Herald #455.
83097 Black with Green Boiler #455
83098 Black with Green Boiler Unlettered.
83099 Black Unlettered

Does not make sense to me, but I ordered 83098, hope it comes without the doghouse, or the doghouse as a seperate item that can be left off.

With all these new freight cars, can a Bachmann 1:20.3 caboose be far behind?

Now that I have 2 Shays,some 1:20.3 rolling stock and 2 porters and a K27 on order, It suddenly dawned on me.

I need some cabooses.

What is available in 1:20.3?

I probably need a 2 axle bobber (or two) for logging and something really big for the K27.

Lighted with nice interiors, please.

What is available in 1:20.3? Anything that won't break the bank?

Quote from: Jon D. Miller on September 21, 2007, 11:45:45 AM
There no doubt are those hard-core folks that won't run anything that wasn't used on the railroad they model.

On the other hand, there will probably be a lot of us that could give a fig if the K-27 was railroad specific.

 I have the green boiler version, numbered, painted, unlettered on order.  I'll letter it for the CD&StL and run the "hell" out of it.

I could care less about Colorado narrow gauge.  But that sure is a nice locomotive and most folks that see it running here in the East won't have a clue as to the railroad that used these locomotives.

Most people have no idea just how many narrow gauge logging railroads there were.

In Alabama alone, there were over 200 logging railroads. Buying and selling used locos was so common that there were several companies that did just that. Some locos had many owners. Used locos came from all over the US, Mexico and Canada. While there were plenty of shays, Climaxes and Hesliers used in Alabama, Few 2-8-2's were used. One of which, I can find no real information on. It was thought to have come from Mexico, was heavily modified, and lost track of completely. As far as I can tell. there were no pictures. Who is to say It doesn't look a whole lot like a mud-hen.

Was there some other RR that used a loco close enough to the K27 that people besides a few Rio Grand fans will buy the Kay?

From the tone of most posts on this forum, I take that most would not buy any loco unless it came lettered for their favorite road.
Besides a few dozen Rio Addicts,  who will buy all those? Jeez 1,500, are you sure they didn't mean 150?

OK, My Kay is ordered and prepaid. $664.99
Guess I'll just have to figure out the wiring when it gets here.