Yesterday Stan Ames said there was nothing wrong with the counterweights.

IMHO, asking a LS train consumer to go to an electronics store to obtain parts that they then have to install themselves, just to get something to work out of the box, is fraught with danger.
If Bachmann are not careful they will have a PR disaster on their hands in no time at all.
IMHO, although I still don't like the idea of the socket pcb and would much prefer simple screw terminals, I do concede that it is here to stay.  Apart from the chuff timer, I do believe Bachmann have got the actual PnP socket pretty right.

It is the aim of RCS to recommend battery R/C installations that do NOT require any modifications or additions to the existing Bachmann wiring whatsoever.
This may or may not happen. 
Please be advised.  Only when RCS can get hold of a K-27 to actually install an RCS battery R/C system, will RCS announce the RCS authorised installation procedure(s).
We want to get it right and not go off half cocked recommending "fixes" to the Bachmann wiring when it may not be necessary to do so.

Quote from: r.cprmier on January 12, 2008, 10:54:02 AM
Tony;
What is the latest battery technology, and how might it apply to this locomotive?  I have now about six Fn3 locomotives-the two k-27s making that number; and before I start setting up the railroad, I want to get some knowledge on this subject.

Rich

Hi Rich, No disrespect intended, but I have never quite understood why the fascination with only the latest technology, or in the case of batteries, the latest chemistry.

Without going to far into the subject here, although I have researched the matter, the only chemistry I will consider for some of the larger locos such as the k27,  are the old tried and true NiCd batteries in SubC size or larger.
They last longer, in terms of the number of recharges possible, than NiMh, They do not sef discharge in weeks like NiMh can and do, and they can handle pretty well any load without spitting the dummy.

Where space is a consideration I only ever use AA cells made by Sanyo called ENELOOP that use hybrid chemistry of Alkaline and NiMh.  These batteries are guaranteed to hold 85% charge for 12 months and will not self discharge in a matter of weeks like NiMh will do.  I only use them when the load is unlikely to exceed 1 amp draw. They are not big enough for the K 27 which is likely to draw around 3 amps with a big load and going up a grade.

Others have had success with Li-Ion and Li-Pol.
The only brand with the requisite built in control electronics I have heard of, is Crest, made by/for AristoCraft.  Unfortunately whilst I understand they have gained a reputation for reliability, they are only made in 22 volt packs.  Fine if you want to play slot trains, but a voltage waster  that generates heat, where a more sensible 14.4 volts is adequate for the job on hand.  The K27 which lopes along just fine on 14.4 volts.

Those are strictly my opnions.
You make your choice, you pay your money.

Now this looks like the perfect opportunity for some enterprising small craft kit manufacturer(s), to offer just such a kit(s).

Good luck to them if they do.

Here is an update on what RCS will be doing.

Since I wrote the above comments I have had a chance to study exactly what Bachmann is actually offering the LS community with the K27.
I have decided not to detail how to modify the existing socket pcb in the tender.  There will be no need to.
Rather I will offer two ways of installing battery R/C.  Neither of which will involve any changes to the existing Bachmann wiring.

Firstly, no matter what brand of battery R/C you will be installing, the Bachmann socket pcb provides an input terminal to access the pcb.
A. If you are installing a PNP controller with a built in, or plug in R/C, such as the QSI + Airwire system, you can use the BATTERY - TRACK switch as an effective battery supply ON - OFF switch.  It will be up to you how you actually install the batteries and access them to keep them charged.
B. If you will be installing an non PNP R/C system such as Airwire, Locolinc, RCS or EVO, that TRACK - BATTERY will not really suffice. You will have to still install the batteries plus an overall ON - OFF switch and method of on board charging if you don't want to continually keep removing the tender shell to charge the batteries.
In this instance I will offer the BIK-U3 installation kit plus a Y-CABLE harness for those want to use twin stick Ni-Cd or NiMH batteries that have Tamiya connectors. 
These two items will greatly simplify the installation for either A or B methods no matter which brand of R/C you choose to use.

Assuming you are choosing method B, RCS will detail two ways of going about the battery R/C install.
I won't get into specialist sound systems but rest assured whichever RCS system you use it will be sound compatible.

1). This will be a very simple method of installing battery R/C.
The dummy plug is left in place and the output of the onboard R/C controller is simply hooked up to the BATTERY terminals and the TRACK - BATTERY switch is set to BATTERY.  The track voltage is positively isolated so only the output of the R/C controller is fed into the Bachmann electronics.
Performance is just the same as it would be on track power but with a big improvement when compared to running on dirty track.
Because the lights on the K 27 will come on an instant before the loco starts to move, there is no real reason to go to a higher level of installation unless you want to have all the lights on even when stationary.

2). Now that RCS is confidant that Bachmann have got the basic socket design right, RCS will be offering a totally new Plug'N'Play R/C controller designed especially for the K 27.  The PNP-1. 

Simply remove the dummy plug and plug in the PNP-1. 
Plug in the suitably mounted RCS RX-8 receiver module.
Then hook up the fused battery supply, via  BIK-U3 if you choose to, and switch the TRACK - BATTERY switch to BATTERY.  (The PNP-1 is designed only for battery power.  You cannot use constant track voltage as the power source).
Then switch the BIK-U3 switch to ON. 
Link the PNP-1 to the RCS TX-24.
You will be set to go.

The PNP-1 will be capable of a genuine 3 amps continuous and be plug compatible with the Phoenix P5 + P5T sound systems.
It will also have options for use with other brands of sound systems.  Because of the way the Phoenix will be wired to the PNP-1, I see no problems using the built in K 27 chuff timer, as it comes from Bachmann.
The RCS PNP-1 controller will have built in motor "noise" suppression so that long range is assured when the system is correctly installed.
Subject to successful testing of PNP-1 prototypes, the PNP-1 will hopefully be available at the end of Feb or early March.

RCS is not in the habit of announcing vapour ware.

Rest assured, it will happen.

Yes Matthew.

Everything is left stock standard.
The dummy board will also be left in place for the very basic on board battery install.
It will also be left in place for the next level install.  However, two traces on the dummy board will need to be cut to isolate the motor for direct connection to the R/C controller output. 
The internal Bachmann electronics will then be powered by the full battery traction voltage the polarity of which is controlled by a small fused relay.
More later.

No Brian. 

As advised by Mr Stan Ames, the NMRA - LARGE SCALE switch is before the TRACK - BATTERY PICK UP switch and will have no effect.

Edit note:  I had the original reply wrong.

Another edit note:  I had the original reply correct. 
Stan Ames was wrong.

Now the answer is once again YES.  You can simply throw the NMRA - LARGE SCALE switch to change the polarity of the BATTERY terminal.
The NMRA - LARGE SCALE switch is wired after the TRACK - BATTERY switch.

The K 27 looks like being a pretty straightforward battery R/C install using RCS.



The TRACK - BATTERY switch on the K 27 Super Socket is not wired the same as the AristoCraft socket.  Unlike the AristoCraft switch, the Bachmann TRACK - BATTERY switch completely isolates the on board BATTERY terminals from the track in TRACK position.  This is an effective battery supply ON - OFF switch.

We used an RCS # ILC-2. 

 

These provide enough parts for four locos.  The cost is about US$ 4 per loco plus the trail car and battery R/C.  Many operators will already have their trail cars set up so installation will be a snip!!!

Anyway, simply feed an RCS ILC-2 connector lead through the rear of the tender and connect it to the BATTERY terminals on the socket pcb.  Set the switch to BATTERY and you are all set to go.  If the loco runs backwards simply reverse the two wires at the BATTERY terminal on the socket pcb.

We found 14.4 volts gives an ideal top speed.  If you want to go faster use more volts.

In the next day or so I shall offer up some on board installation options.  These will range from very easy to quite simple.

At least the chuff contacts work in the Shays.

They don't at all in the Climax and not very well in the Heisler.

Quote from: scottychaos on November 21, 2007, 10:13:09 AM
BIG SNIP
IMO, MTH made a mistake by doing their Large Scale locos in the O-scale "toy train" style..and making them 1/32 instead of 1/29.


Scot

My opinion is different.

I think making them to 1:32nd scale was the corect thing to do.
Where MTH erred is in making the use of the their proprietary DCS control system mandatory.
I know of many regular LS'ers who would invest in most of the MTH LS offerings if they could choose the sound and control system of their choice.

Hi Tac.

Boingggg!!!!

Is that the sound of a penny dropping?

You need to lend your weight behind the push to have screw terminals as part of the proposed standardised plug in electronics interface.

I'd like to think that a smart Company such as Bachmann would see the advantages of screw terminals, as it opens up the options for simplifying the installation of add on equipment.

Jim, With respect.

If you had been following this "discussion" right from the start you would have seen that all of the above had been gone through already.

I repeat this is not rocket science.

Essentially the proposal is simply a modified AristoCraft socket which may or may not be adequate for the task at hand.
That socket already caters for the plug in (to the socket) type controllers and with which I have no argument.
Whilst I agree with Dave Goodson that for simplicity purposes only screw terminals would be ideal I am realistic enough to know that is never going to happen.
So, by simply adding a few low cost screw terminals to the socket pcb you would not need two different sockets to carry the higher current demanded by locos such as those made by USA Trains.
As far as I can determine all the high current R/C speed controllers & DCC decoders available, only have screw terminals for the power circuits.  There is a very good reason for this.  Only screw terminals can RELIABLY carry high currents.
Believe me I know.  I make the stuff.  I have been the plug and socket route and will never go back to it.
For technical and production cost reasons the screw terminals MUST be part of the socket.
Can you envisage any loco manufacturer who having agreed to a DCC socket without screw terminals and put them into production, then agreeing to another modified design?  I think not.

A suitable design that kept the basic AC socket (with screw terminals and a few modifications to cater for extra accessory functions with pins and plugs that would only be required to carry the low currents required) was proposed to Stan Ames.  He agreed with the design and promised that it would be incorporated.
Stan also understood that the basic method of wiring the AC Track - Battery switch would need to be modified to prevent accidentally coonecting the batteries to the track.  A problem which it currently has.  That fault can be easily overcome too.

The problem is, Stan reneged on the agreement and shunted the screw terminals off to the "internal wiring" part of the proposal, which they had never been a part of, before he rammed through the socket proposal for voting on WITHOUT screw terminals.
The "internal wiring" for battery R/C was only to include wiring of the battery power ON - OFF switch and the access port for actually charging the batteries in situ.  Again, not rocket science and which should be left free for the LS'er to select his/her method of choice.  After all the DCC user would not need that part, so why should they have to pay for it?

I am not knocking the socket per se.  I just want this done correctly from the start, and cater for all the various types of controllers.  I do not want this to be another balls up that would need later revision.

Quote from: Jim Banner on October 28, 2007, 12:19:39 AM
SNIP

Please note that I am taking about a suitable standard socket.   I have no idea whether the socket under "secret discussion" will be suitable for large scale or not.  SNIP

Jim,

Judging by your comments above that just about sums up the situation.

Might I respectfully suggest you read up on the subject and I feel certain your opinion will change rapidly.

The problem with all this is that Stan Ames agreed with the concept of screw terminals mounted on the socket.  Then he reneged on the idea and allowed the WG vote to go ahead on accepting the socket proposal WITHOUT the screw terminals he previously had agreed to.

Quote from: lrparks on July 19, 2007, 09:01:55 AM
I'm putting together a simple track layout and working on purchasing one of the Annie 4-6 locos. At most i will be adding 2 passenger cars and a caboose. I will only be running one loco and would like to be able to control speed, lights, and sound. Can you suggest a RCS RX TX combo that suits my simple needs? I like the ~14V ~3.5A battery setup altterrain has since it seems it will provide plenty of power for me. I'm planning on installing the RX on the tender. I just don't think I need the TX24.

Thank you for considering RCS.

This is a Bachmann forum and whilst I certainly appreciate Bachmann permitting discussion of non Bachmann products here, it would be courteous of us to take specifics off the forum.
Please contact me offline and I will steer you in the right direction.

Quote from: new G on July 19, 2007, 05:57:55 PM
allterrain
With all due respect to you and Polk, Aristo and RCS they are only in the business of selling and marketing not engineering and design, they leave this aspect up to the Chinese, Korean and Japanese.
SNIP

Sorry to demur, but, with respect to RCS, that is simply not true.
The TX-24 and RX-8 are both made in Fiji by Elsema Pty Ltd. The TX-24 to my specifications.
Everything else in the RCS range is made right here in Australia by me.  Personally.
Research and design is also done in Australia by a couple of paid consultants and myself.