Quote from: Ckrails on April 05, 2015, 08:37:11 AM
Happy Easter all!  Just got a new EZ Command system and a second hand Spectrum 70 Tonner with a factory installed Kader decoder. I don't know what the previous address was for this locomotive, so I am following the directions for setting a new address when the prior one was >10.  Unfortunately this does not work and the locomotive just whines loudly (no sound decoder installed).  The loco does continue to run with address 10 (as DC).  Recommendations?

If you put the locomotive on a DCC track and it whines it does not have a decoder.  If it is operating at the DC address that also implies there is no decoder in the locomotive.

Hope that helps

Stan

jv

Sorry for the confusion.  I was trying to answer the questions in context for use with the K27

SoundTraxx makes excellent products just not currently a retail product suitable for track powered DCC Large Scale applications from both a voltage and amperage standpoint.  They used to produce a product called Sierra that was designed for Large Scale use and they announced a excellent plug in decoder for Large Scale that has yet to be released.

I do not have a new production Tsunami TSU-1000, to double confirm with. Past product that I have will shut of the motor and sound at about 20-21 volts DCC. Fine for the smaller scales but a little low for Large Scale.  My track voltage is around 21.5 volts DCC.  It is not uncommon to see Large Scale DCC track voltages at 24V DCC even though this is above the standard.

SoundTraxx and Bachmann teamed up to produce a plug in a sound decoder for the Climax which does work at the higher LS DCC track voltages and has a suitable amperage for the Climax.  This board will also plug into a Forney but does not have a suitable amperage for the K27, the 2-6-6-2 or the C-19

Hope that answers your questions.

Stan

PS  Decoder+ is Decoder Positive and Decoder - is Decoder Ground.

Quote from: jviss on April 02, 2015, 10:26:38 AM

Hi Stan.  I'm brand new to DCC, and the only decoder I have is the Soundtraxx Tsunami TSU-1000, and my reading of the docs was that it wanted a trigger from the rail.  That's because the installation manual explains how to wire a trigger wire that is insulated from the frame and connected to the chuff input, , and contacts a "cam" disc that is adhered to a driver wheel, the conductive sectors of which are electrically connected to the driver, and thence the rail.

Perhaps even more to the point, there is no ground reference exposed from the Tsunami decoder!  The "function common" appears to be a Vcc reference, the function outputs apparently open-collector outputs.  Other than speaker outputs there's rail in and motor out; no ground reference.  To have a ground reference you'd have to make a guess as to how Soundtraxx established this inside the decoder, and then synthesize this with a circuit outside, perhaps a FWB rectifier and assume the more negative of the rectified output of is "ground."  

What I am saying in a roundabout way is that in DCC, because the rail voltage is alternating, there is no "ground."

Do I have this wrong?

Thanks,

jv


UPDATE: I just today wrote to Soundtraxx support, and they responded, and have confirmed what I surmised about the chuff input: it's "looking for rail power."

JV

The Tsunami TSU-1000 is not an appropriate decoder for the K27 for many reasons

1) insufficient current for the K27
2) DCC track voltage in Large Scale is higher then the Tsunami TSU-1000 support
3) The K27 needs both a decoder + and decoder - connection to operate properly.  Most Large Scale decoders support both.  Many decoders designed for smaller scales do not.

Soundtraxx announced a decoder for the Large Scale socket found in the Bachmann Spectrum locomotives but to date has not released the product.

BTW another good alternative is a non sound decoder and a sound only card. The SJR&P uses Lenz Gold Maxi decoders with Phoenix sound`

Quote from: joeaug1025 on April 01, 2015, 10:48:00 AM
What manufacturer(s) make a DCC decoder with sound for the Bachmann "F" scale (1:20.3) K27 that plugs directly into the PC board connector

Unfortunately here are no current DCC decoders in the market that plug directly into the K27 and work for all functions out of the box.

QSI and Zimo both make excellent sound decoders with plugs that plug into the socket and work perfectly with all the socket equipped Bachmann Spectrum  locomotives except the K27

The problem is the chuff.  The K27 has a positive trigger and the decoders desire a ground trigger.  It is easy to insert a transistor to invert the chuff. See the documentation that Bachmann has on its site for instructions.

Another good alternative is the ESU large scale decoder. This decoder works with both a ground or a positive chuff and is an excellent decoder.  To install it in a K27 you use wires from the dummy socket to the decoder.  Bachmann makes a dummy board with wires that you simply screw into the decoder and includes this part with all other Spectrum locomotives.  I have not seen it offered as a separate part but perhaps if you call and ask they can find one for you.

Hope that helps

Stan

Some thoughts

Clean the backside of the wheels so that the pickups make good contact

Make sure that the springs for the pickups on the front wheels are making actually pushing the pickup wheel against the wheel.

Check the resistance from the front wheel to the back wheel on each side.  It is possible that one of the spring pickups is very dirty inside or the spring has collapsed and needs to be replaced.

Hope that helps

Stan

Quote from: jviss on March 23, 2015, 04:34:12 PM
Thanks Stan and Hunt.  I read the doc and all the child docs that Hunt's link points to.  Very interesting.  I confess I have only learned of this now, but I can't detect that there's a single decoder available that actually plugs and plays.  Am I missing something?  All of the ones documented require at least one of trace cutting, soldering, component additions, and so forth. 

Stan, when you say "the NMRA did indeed create a draft standard for an interface for Large Scale" I take it to mean it never made it to publication as a standard; is that so?  Is the draft available?

If the draft isn't available, can you say what the motor current maximum is for this interface?  Other electrical characteristics?

One curious thing, Bachmann says "first Large Scale locomotive with totally isolated electronics, which allows for easy installation of the control system of your choice" and then has pins on the interface for locomotive ground and locomotive positive.  What could these be?

Has anyone else implemented this?

I would prefer a connector-based standard that didn't require such a wide header; 12 pins presumably on 0.1" centers makes for a cable-mounted header about 1.5" wide - tough to snake through spaces.  And, the entirety of the keying feature is implemented with a blank position, requiring the PCB to implement the keying feature.

Thanks,

jv

JV

Both Zimo and QSI build currently offer plug and play DCC decoders for this interface.  Soundtraxx announced one but to date it has not been released.  There are also several RC units that plug and play.

In the locomotive's released after the K27 Bachmann provides a board with wires that can be used to easily use decoders with screw terminals.

The draft was approved as a draft by the NMRA DCC WG but it was never promoted to a standard.  At the time the NMRA was waiting for more than a single manufacturer to fully support the draft.  Accrucraft may be placing the socket in their 1:29 models but we will have to wait and see what they have done.

The + and - on the interface are used to power the internal locomotive electronics such as the fans and the chuff circuits.  They are also used for the high power smoke current, the actual on off for the smoke is through a different pin.

The +-, track, and motor pins must be large enough to handle the current.  The other pins need not be as large as they do not carry any real current. 

I can forward you a draft of the standard should you shout me an email.

Stan

Actually the NMRA did indeed create a draft standard for an interface for Large Scale.  Bachmnann currently uses the draft of this standard in its Spectrum locomotives and several manufacturers build DCC and RC products that plug into this interface.

Currently the Europeans are looking at a the possibility of a different connector to base a future standard upon.

Stan Ames

The chuff output goes to ground when there is a chuff so you simply hook it to the chuff input wire on the Phoenix board.

The smoke function is a low current function (a few milliamps) that can be used by any decoder function output.

Both the smoke function and chuff circuit only work when you provide + and - DC power to the locomotive which is normally done when you plug a device into the socket.

Stan

Not an easy answer.  The simplest way is to use the electronics on the tender board and simply hook up the airwire to the existing electronics using either the adaptor board Airwire sells or hard wiring it.  If you use the extensions you can raise the board providing you ore room for the batteries.

If you do not want to use the board in the tender then I highly recommend you still use the wiring in the locomotive itself and use an ohm meter to figure out which wire is which on the connector wires.

You will need to supply both a + and - DC voltage to the locomotive.  The chuff sensor circuits are in the locomotive as well as the low current transistor that controls the smoke unit allowing you to use a low current output to control the smoke.

I do not have the specs for the LEDs used as I normally use the current limiting transistors.  Others who have done the conversion without using the board will have to provide that answer.

Hope that helps

Stan

Perhaps some history will help.

In Europe 1:22.5 is actually II scale and 1:22.5 on 45mm track is actually IIm.  Yes there are both standard and narrow gauge models in this scale on different gauge tracks. For a long time LGB only produced scale meter gauge models in that scale.

LGB called its trains Gross Bahn or large trains which is the origin of the term G.

In the early and mid 90s the major manufacturers, the model press, and yes the NMRA met and agreed on interchange.  Subsequent meetings agreed on G to be the generic term covering all of Large Scale and also for the manufacturers to put the scale of their models on their packages.  Some did some did not.  (I still have the signatures on the agreements).

Today it is likely gest to refer to this as Large Scale and when interested refer to the scale in use as the term G means many different things to different people.

Stan

Mike

Sorry, Apparently I do not have a video of this locomotive and it is put away for the season.

Hook up is very simple.

I used a P5 which has several inputs. Just hook them up to the 2-6-6-2 chuff outputs.  The only thing different is that the I used a relay for the rear engine chuff output.  A DCC function  controls the relay.

Next time the locomotive is run I will  take a video of it.  It a little far back in the line at the present time so it may be awhile.

Stan

The purpose of the fan is to cool the motor.  In most cases this is not needed.  However if you load the locomotive in the sun for a long period of time the temperature inside the boiler can rise considerably.  The fan keeps the motor cooler.

It is a 12 volt DC fan.

Hope that helps

Stan

Kevin

You are correct

At a low speed to provide the maximum force, the engineer would set the locomotive for simple mode.  In simple mode you will hear 4 chuffs per revelation on the front engine and 4 chuffs per revolution from the rear engine.  The chuffs would slowly go in and out of synch with each other.  As the locomotive gained speed the engineer would set the locomotive for compound mode at which time you would only hear the front engine chuffs or 4 chuffs per revolution.

The Bachmann 2-6-6-2 is somewhat unique in that it has a separate chuff sensor for each engine. On my 2-6-6-2 I hook up each of these two sensors to a separate chuff input on a phoenix sound board.  The rear sensor is connected through a switch controlled by a DCC function so that the engineer can set the locomotive to either simple or compound mode.

Provides a much more realistic effect than any auto chuff is capable of.

Stan

very easy if the locomotive works on a DC powered track

Put the loco on a DCC powered track.

If the motor hums then no decoder is installed.

No sound  there is a decoder installed

Stan

Anyone know what the model number and production date is for Ernies D&RGW #177 4-6-0

Thanks

Stan