Quote from: jward on August 10, 2024, 04:37:10 PMThe biggest problem you have is that you are trying to use steel rail track with DCC. Steel rail is very hard to keep clean, and DCC requires clean rails for an uncorrupted control signal. If you look at the Bachmann catalog you will see that all DCC sets come with nickel silver rail. There is a good reason for this: conductivity is much better with Nickle silver and is requires far less cleaning.

That you disregarded recommendations of the manufacturer by going the cheap route with steel rail, then trying to run DCC on that track in no way means that the control system is at fault. If you want things to work right, you have to design and build your layout using the recommended components. That you did not do so is YOUR fault, not the manufacturers.

So my layout actually consists of a mix of both steel rail and nickel silver (black roadbed & gray roadbed), the reason being I originally started with a DC starter set over 4 years ago and gradually expanded my layout, and switched to DCC just under 3 years ago. I kept using the original track I had, and bought more over time in both varieties, depending on availability (i.e. some pieces of track were only available in the nickel silver version). I'd say roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the track I have is nickel silver, but at this point it might not be sensible to replace all the existing steel track (not to mention that the same problems could occasionally occur on nickel silver track as well).

Quote from: jward on August 10, 2024, 04:37:10 PMExacerbating your problem is the short wheelbase locomotive running over a switchpoint that's making intermittent contact. A longer wheelbase locomotive would help solve the problem as it would bridge the dead spot better. My solution in a situation like this is to solder a feeder wire to the dead switchpoint, but that is impossible to do with steel rail.

I've also figured that could've been a problem, which only highlights another deficiency of the 2-rail power system, as ideally any trains should be able to run anywhere without issue. I've thought about possibly wrapping foil around parts of the dead switchpoints to reduce the electrical gaps (basically the opposite of applying nail polish), but that could exacerbate other problems like causing shorts.

Quote from: jward on August 10, 2024, 04:37:10 PMA third problem appears to be the wheels are coming in contact with the cross rails at the crossing. this bridges the two separate circuits I assume you are using on this crossing as you referred to using two different autoreverse units. Your wheels are completing a circuit between the two autoreversers as they are wider than the insulated parts of the rail at the crossing. A simple solution is to paint the rail metal rails at the crossing with clear nail polish, just enough so that the autoreversers don't trip.

Based on the position of the train's wheels at the crossing, I really don't see how it could bridge the circuits, as all the wheels are either touching the live rail they're rolling on, or the dead plastic switchpoint, and are clearly not touching the intersecting track's live rail (the insulated gaps prevent that, as they're supposed to). In fact, I've found that the wheels on that particular car are slightly too narrow out of gauge (checked using the NMRA gauge tool) which would also explain why they'd short out at the turnout exiting the reverse loop.

It's odd though that even with 2 independent circuits for the reverse loops, they do appear to switch polarity at the same time, even if only 1 of the circuits is flipped, and attempting to flip only one at a time (by keeping the other one constant by bridging one of the insulated gaps) would just short out and reset the layout.

Quote from: jward on August 10, 2024, 04:37:10 PMAs for battery powered dead rail. Yes it is a solution, but it is expensive and a pain to install. Two rail power is a time tested method of controlling the trains, in widespread use longer than most of us have been alive.

While retrofitting existing 2-rail powered trains with batteries and remote control operation may be too difficult, I don't see why they couldn't be built that way to begin with, since lot's of battery-powered remote-controlled gadgets do exist (toy cars, drones, etc), which I find hard to believe is more difficult to implement than a 2-rail layout requiring complicated wiring for things like reverse loops, etc.

Lately all my trains except one have been stalling and stuttering randomly for no apparent reason, some more often than others. Yes I would clean the track and the wheels before running them, yet the same problem could still occur even right after cleaning. Some problem spots on the track I would vigorously scrub by hand with alcohol, and recently I caved in and bought a track-cleaning car to do the work for me by having a locomotive push it around the layout at max speed. Unfortunately, that's not 100% effective either. The problem is worst when running at slow speeds, although sometimes even at max speed a train might suddenly stop and start again, for no reason at all, on a continuous section of track that it went through without issue the previous time. And often a train might inexplicably lose power if positioned in a particular way no matter how clean the wheels and the track are, which is what usually results in sudden stalling at slow speed.

I put together a 2-minute video compilation to better show the bugs I'm dealing with: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uRaQdCGrLC7onssxM5xRk_D03UICTzV8/
(that's a brand new GE 44-tonner btw, which shouldn't have those issues right out of the box)

My layout also has 2 reverse loops, with the reversing sections forming an X, and some trains would often trigger the autoreverser when passing through the middle of the X at slow speed, while the entire train is fully within the reversing section, even though there should be no way for the train's wheels to cause a short or anything (this problem is also included towards the end of the video, where the clicking sound can be heard while a train crosses the X, or even when it's stopped there, when gently tapping it would do the trick; the exact position of the train's wheels is shown in the last 2 slides of the video). Both reverse loops used to use Bachmann autoreverse modules, one of which has since been replaced with an MRC AD520 autoreverser, which seems to be more reliable thus far. I just received the second MRC AD520 today, to replace the other Bachmann module, which will hopefully solve this problem.

At this point, I'm thoroughly convinced that having trains powered by the running rails is an absolutely terrible design, and how much better, simpler, and more reliable it would be to simply have each train powered by batteries and operated by a remote control, allowing them to run much more freely and autonomously (you could even take them off the track and run them on the floor if you felt like it!). Not to mention, nothing is more unprototypical than trains being powered by the running rails. The closest real-world example that comes to mind are rapid transit lines that use linear induction motors & reaction rail technology (and having had one of those in my city, I can say those trains definitely couldn't move as freely and smoothly as regular 3rd rail / overhead wire / diesel trains can; not to mention that they couldn't run at all whenever the reaction rail was covered in snow/ice, much like model trains can't run properly unless the running rails are spotless).

Quote from: Gearedenginefreak on November 20, 2020, 09:25:11 AM
H5subway -

Google Micromark truck tuner. It is a tool that will perfectly take care of the wheelset binding you described when changing to metal wheelsets. It is worth every penny. I have used it for years as I convert cars from plastic wheels to metal.

Tom

This tool has been useful in improving the rolling quality of most of my cars, but unfortunately the last 2 cars I got turned out to be a lot more difficult. Both of those cars came with metal wheels, and thus should've had perfect rolling quality from the beginning, but unfortunately their rolling quality wasn't as good as I expected. But for some reason the truck frames on those cars are so tight that the truck tuner just wouldn't fit in them (I was worried about accidentally breaking the frames when trying to tune them), as a result I wasn't able to tune those cars properly (it seems like it might've actually made it worse). I wonder why that is (why those frames are built such that the truck tuner can't fit, even though it was specifically designed for that purpose).

Edit: nevermind, just tried it again (tried harder but still carefully), was successfully able to do both cars this time. It was a bit harder than the other cars, but not impossible.

Quote from: Gearedenginefreak on November 20, 2020, 09:25:11 AM
H5subway -

Google Micromark truck tuner. It is a tool that will perfectly take care of the wheelset binding you described when changing to metal wheelsets. It is worth every penny. I have used it for years as I convert cars from plastic wheels to metal.

Tom

Thank you for letting me know. I received it today and used it (I had enough spare untrimmed wheelsets to replace the wheels on 3 out of the 4 cars that originally had plastic wheels, and they roll perfectly now; waiting to receive another batch of replacement wheels to do the last car as well).

Quote from: jward on November 16, 2020, 10:48:37 PM
crossing (not crossover. That term has a completely different meaning in railroading.)

Yes, I meant crossover (i.e. this: https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/2df815873c13751c7f35a19dfad3040f/esy-032344888.jpg), which is what I have in my layout (the green section): https://cptdb.ca/uploads/monthly_2020_10/420403057_Newlayout.jpg.1352727b27bcd6d61829a2ba913a33f6.jpg

Quote from: jward on November 16, 2020, 10:48:37 PM
It sounds like the wheels on your subway cars are slightly wider than the insulated parts of the crossing

I wasn't referring to the plastic frogs at the crossing, but the insulated gap in the rails separating the mainline from the reversing loop (i.e. where the gray meets the green on the diagram). Sometimes (but not always) the train would lose power when going through that spot even though the polarity of the reversing loop was set correctly. Or, when the train is fully in the reversing loop and both switches (DPDT and controller) were flipped, it sometimes wouldn't start up again.

Another issue I've found previously when replacing plastic wheels with metal ones: the needle point bearings on the wheels sold separately were a bit too wide, such that when I first popped them into the truck frame they couldn't spin at all because they fit too tightly. So I had to trim both sides to get them to fit so that they could spin freely, but they still don't roll as well as the cars that came with metal wheels already intact (not to mention that the trim didn't quite turn out perfectly even). I wonder why the wheels that are sold separately aren't identical to the ones on those cars (that come with metal wheels), and if it is possible to purchase those higher-quality wheels separately.

So last week I got 2 DPDT switches and some wires, and was able to make my layout operational (of course, since the polarity has to be switched manually, trains can't just run through the crossover seamlessly, without being stopped to allow the polarity to be switched). However, sometimes there is still a problem with electrical shorts. I'm aware that the insulated section is supposed to be longer than the train, but that's not the issue I've had. A few times when running the subway set into the crossover (especially at slow speeds), even though the polarity matched the polarity of the main track from which the train entered the crossover (which should've allowed the train to keep running seamlessly until it reached the other end of the crossover), the train would still stop and lose power shortly after the first car entered the crossover (specifically when the wheels on the trailing cars touched the insulated gap in the rails). I know the wheels can cause shorts if the train is longer than the insulated track, but that's definitely not supposed to happen when the train is entering the insulated track, and the polarity matches the main track. The subway set has 4 cars, all of which can fit within the insulated track, the other trainset is slightly longer than the insulated track but doesn't generally have the same issue because the cars are all electrically dead (aside from having metal wheels), whereas the non-powered subway cars have interior lighting and thus are not electrically dead.

Quote from: jward on October 29, 2020, 09:44:47 AM
Next, wire the two contacts on the end of the switch (either end will do) to your controller.

Do you mean connecting it to the mainline track, or the DC controller itself? The controller I'm using only has 2 outlets (to connect to the wall plug and the track) so I can't plug another wire into it. The only option would be to plug it into the rerailer terminal on the other side from where the controller is plugged in, but I'm not sure how that would work. However, looking at this diagram (https://www.heathcote-electronics.co.uk/images-reverse-loop/reverse-loop-dpdt.jpg ) it looks like I would simply need to connect the DPDT switch to the mainline track and the reverse loop.

Quote from: jward on October 29, 2020, 09:44:47 AM
TO operate the reversing section, you first run your train into the section. If it stops at the entrance to the section, flip the DPDT switch. Once your locomotive is fully within the section, flip the DPDT and the reverse switch on your controller at the same time. You can then exit the section and your train will be travelling around the layout in the opposite direction.

So unlike a DCC autoreverse module, the DPDT switch can only flip the polarity of the reverse loop, but not of the mainline track without reversing the switch on the controller?

Quote from: jward on October 27, 2020, 05:39:55 AM
DCC autoreversers only work for DCC.

DCC decoder addresses are not assigned by the controller, they are programmed in by the user with address 3 being the factory default in most cases.


From your original post it appears neither of your sets is actually DCC. You would need to add a decoder to run them with DCC. You would also need a DCC command station, which apparently you don't have. This is a good thing, as you can look for a full featured entry level set (They run under $250) that is capable of not only running your train but programming them as well. Avoid those sets that will only run the trains and change the decoder address, they cost almost as much as one that will do everything.

I could help you with your layout wiring if only i could see your plan.

Thank you for your advice. Since I'm using Bachmann's controller and EZ track, I was thinking of possibly getting Bachmann's EZ command DCC controller. I watched a couple of tutorials on Youtube about how it works, and it seems relatively easy (like you mentioned, DCC-equipped trains are preset to 3, and an analog train would be preset to 10, and it also explained to how reassign the numbers), so I would be able to run both trains even if one of them isn't DCC equipped. Unfortunately, the tutorial also said that the autoreverser I have won't work for a non-DCC train even if it's running on a DCC system, so I guess that rules out that possibility. So the only option for a DC layout is a DPDT switch? I've uploaded my layout diagram in the original post, but if it still doesn't show up I've also uploaded it here: https://cptdb.ca/uploads/monthly_2020_10/420403057_Newlayout.jpg.1352727b27bcd6d61829a2ba913a33f6.jpg

Thank you everyone for your replies. I've uploaded my track layout diagram to my Google photos, and embedded the link in my original post. It shows up for me when I'm logged in, but not always when I'm logged out (it didn't yesterday but it does today), so hopefully others who view this thread can see it too. When purchasing the auto-reverser I was aware that the worst thing that could happen is that I would be throwing over $100 out the window if it didn't work for my layout, so before I purchase another one, or a DCC controller, I want to be 100% sure that it would work. I'm curious as to how the DCC controller can automatically assign #1 to the first DCC-ready train (and whether it would do the same thing if it were another DCC-ready train, or whether it would automatically assign a different number), and #10 to a non-DCC train. If the auto-reverser won't work for my layout, I would consider using a manual DPDT switch, but again I would need to be sure that it would work, and how to install it, before buying it.

Hello everyone, first time posting here. I am fairly new (6 months) to the hobby. I currently have 2 trainsets: Bachmann's Rail Chief and an MTH R21 subway set (4 cars). I built my track layout as shown here:



This layout is an extension of the well-known layout consisting of an oval superimposed with a figure-8 reverse loop. In order to avoid shorting out the layout, I've isolated the crossover (green) from the main line (gray), so right now trains can only run on the main line. I'm using the DC controller that came with the Rail Chief set, and run one train at a time (either the locomotive or the powered subway car is removed from the track, and any unused non-powered cars are parked inside the crossover). I recently got Bachmann's auto-reverse module (#44912), which according to some sources "eliminates the complicated wiring previously needed to operate analog (DC) reverse-loop track layouts" (https://www.walthers.com/automatic-reversing-loop-module-e-z-command), despite being labelled DCC. The wires that came with it have plastic connectors on both ends, designed to connect to track #44597 which I don't have. So instead I tried connecting the module to some unused wires that originally came with the turnouts:



I connected the turnout at the main line to the Input end of the module, and connected the Output end to the crossover, but that didn't work (the indicator light on the module switched on, but the train would still stop at the end of the turnout).

My main questions are:

1) Can module #44912 be used on a DC layout, and if so, how should it be connected to my layout (since my layout consists of a double crossover, I would need more than one of those, but I started with one for now to make sure it would actually work)?

2) If I would need to switch to a DCC system (which would be better because I could control both trains independently), how would I assign which train is controlled by which button on the controller (#1, #2, etc)? The MTH subway set is specified as DCC-ready, but I'm not sure if the Rail Chief set is DCC-compatible.