Since I've always seen a thread about going over what characters bachmann is going to do I thought I'd do one on the announcement with Duncan.
I was really excited that Duncan got announced cause he was the next narrow gauge engine I wanted them to do. I'm still excited.
since I started buying the narrow gauge engines bachmann has done I just totally like them a lot. (I was going to wait till they did all of them than buy them all but I decided to go ahead and I'm glad I did).
whenever he's released I'll be buying him and the gunpowder wagon (really surprised they're doing that one cause ertl was the only one originally who did this wagon). thought some may disagree I don't mind if Duncan is done like he was in the cgi series (I never cared how good looking the characters they brought back I was more excited about the one's they were able to return).
I've also hoped for duke too (just really want all 7 of the narrow gauge engines despite the demand from Mattel).
this maybe a repeat of what I might of typed on other posts I'm just happy that bachmann has reached all 6 of the original narrow gauge engines.
Like Rusty, it's basically a 99.9% chance he'll be the CGI body design that Mattel will provide to Bachmann, and for that it'll be a hard pass for me.
Duncan's design in CGI should've been revised like how his S5 model had to be redone, but unfortunately we're stuck with what we got, and whoever at Mattel approves the product designs probably doesn't understand what the problem with his design is anyway.
I'm not even sure if his chassis would be suitable for a Douglas body, depending on how big the drive wheels are and how spaced out they are on the CGI model compared to Douglas.
All I have to say about Duncan from there is "oh well."
Bachmann is gonna make a cgi Duncan they use those reference photos if they are gonna redesign salty they won't make a model era style Duncan .
Duncan and the Gunpowder wagon's can now be pre ordered on TrainWorld.
I only hope that Bachmann can find a medium of making Duncan look like his Tallylyn counterpart. I mean at the very least adding the detail of Douglas would be ideal especially if they plan on making more Tallylyn railway counterparts of say Dolgoch, Midlander, etc.
Also I noticed that the likes of Beau, despite having the added buffers on his CGI model, doesn't have it on his HO scale model, which I welcome because the added buffers just looks weird on an engine like him. I hope that it's the case with Duncan since if they want to make real-life counterpart to sell in the future, they'd have to utilize the proportions of Douglas, at least in terms of the detailing and the boiler size, maybe as a middle ground to match both the CGI and real-life counterpart-the best of both worlds I'd say.
Quote from: Luke22 on September 15, 2024, 12:42:25 PMI only hope that Bachmann can find a medium of making Duncan look like his Tallylyn counterpart.
The Tallylyn railway have worked on all the SK with Bachmann so no doubt the Tallylyn will have a huge say with Duncan like with the others.
Unfortunately Duncan has been cancelled, absolutely heart breaking to hear this.
That just sucks!! :'(
Not gonna lie, after hearing the explanation I totally understand and respect the decision to cancel it. Costs were too high, there were too many people to please, and the real life factor just wasn't gonna be there. It's disappointing, but not the end of the world.
I'm very much in shock, knowing the rumors were true. Bachmann went through with Duncan's cancellation because he was going to be based on his CGI render, which wasn't well-received, and it strayed too much away from his real life basis, Douglas.
But that doesn't mean Duncan will never be made. Large Scale Diesel was a previously cancelled product that eventually saw light of day. We can only hope the same can happen for Duncan. If Duncan gets reconsidered one day, we can hope they'll actually base him off of Douglas with measurements. Seeing that he was going to be made based on his infamous CGI render, it was better the tooling wasn't invested in that.
I'm upset but I understand why he was cancelled, I reckon like some people have said this will be a G Scale Diesel situation where as he gets cancelled but later gets made (we will probably have to wait a few more years for that to happen) also it's Duncan he's easily the most popular NG character next to Skarloey if it was just some nobody i'd say yeh there dead but the fact the fandom was spilt over Duncan shows how popular Duncan is.
In short, Duncan's CGI render was so bad, it's what got his Bachmann model cancelled.
Well I'm disappointed. I was really excited for duncan to come after sir handel. but now I'm extremely disappointed. (I've been trying to coupe after I got hit by Helen). and now that duncan is canceled just is more disappointed. (hope he'll come to the line soon).
Duncan was going to be made based on his CGI render, and the pricing was apparently an issue for them. Given how badly received his CGI render was since its inception a decade ago, Douglas would not be accurate using that tooling, and there are no other characters that would use Duncan's tooling either, Bachmann decided that tooling wasn't worth the investment, so they had to can this product. They announced Duncan last year, and just over one year later, they came out with this unfortunate news.
Again, they didn't say Duncan will never be made. He should get reconsidered at some point, considering he is a fan favorite among many, and Narrow Gauge wouldn't be complete without him. We may have to wait at least a few years before Bachmann eventually decides to revisit Duncan. After all, Large Scale Diesel was cancelled, but eventually saw light of day. They can do the same for Duncan.
At least Bachmann could make Smudger using Rheneas' tooling, and Proteus using Sir Handel's tooling, if Mattel can make exceptions for the CGI mandate. Duncan's tooling, on the other hand, would not be usable for other characters, nor his basis, which is the problem.
Had Duncan been made based on his CGI render, which was heavily disliked, the model wouldn't sell very well, so Bachmann was concerned about that.
I'm disappointed that Duncan has been cancelled. For me I aways felt Duncan was project thar wouldn't please everyone even if there was no CGI model mandate and they based him off his TV series model they'd struggle to have that balance of being able to reuse the models for Talyllyn railway models.
However I hope Duncan is a project they can circle back too. I feel some on social media will no doubt be rehashing their "fan art" which is more annoying then helpful. I personally want a model that represents the show (even CGI). Unfortunately Douglas and TV Duncan aren't accurate to each other so that was never gonna happen.
As for the future I feel it's a wait and see game for now. I agree Luke is probably the safest bet. Characters like Duke, Mighty Mac, Freddie, even Smudger being model series exclusives sort of makes their models seem more difficult for Bachmann to make, Luke, Victor and Millie while being CGI Characters I don't know how much of a market their is for their model in real world 009 modelling. Time will tell. We still Sir Handel and the wagons coming.
Mattel should have just fixed Duncan's CGI render to make him look like in the RWS.
I am severely disappointed that this was cancelled. I ordered the whole Bachmann line this year and was extremely excited about Duncan. I can understand the reasoning but i refuse to believe that there isnt a path forward for duncan to be produced. I know many thomas fans have a threshold that we want them to meet but having a character is better than not having them. obviously there may be options years from now but thats the problem. completing the HON30 should be a priority. sounds like a 3d printed model would be the way forward with this news.
Given the reasoning provided I can completely understand why Duncan was cancelled for the time being. It's a shame but it's an understandable one. Plus, they said the lack of cross appeal was just one reason. So, there may be more Doug didn't let on during the stream. My hope is maybe they are just going to move to the other three cgi engines, and then ask Mattel to let them use the model refs. But we will have to see. Unfortunately, with the reason of cross appeal being an issue, not sure we'll ever get Duke. Competing directly with Prince. Since he could be retooled into Bertram that might still give him a boost but I'm less confident in him now. Freddie would actually be a really good choice still since there still isn't a RTR Russel on the market. There is a kit now though, so idk. It's interesting to think about after this decision I suppose.
One thing I don't get is Doug's reasoning of cross appeal. Most fans stated that it's likely because Duncan isn't accurate to the real basis, which I get that part. But we got Rusty, who unlike the other 4 engines, is based more on his model just with extra vents. Whereas the first four are a hybrid on the models and real basis.
Quote from: MrNormalDraws on October 09, 2024, 04:03:19 PMOne thing I don't get is Doug's reasoning of cross appeal. Most fans stated that it's likely because Duncan isn't accurate to the real basis, which I get that part. But we got Rusty, who unlike the other 4 engines, is based more on his model just with extra vents. Whereas the first four are a hybrid on the models and real basis.
Doug said it was first and foremost cause of the production cost. The expense would have been about the same as Sir Handel, and wouldn't have the basis appeal the other steamers have. That was one of the factors, Doug implied there was more. Rusty simply didn't have this problem because he was simpler. This does put anyone beyond Luke and Millie in weird territory I reckon, so I'll be curious to see where this goes from here. Doug said similiar things regarding Harvey and D10's production cost.
The unpopularity with the CGI Duncan being a legitimate concern for the product shows that Bachmann and Mattel need to sit down and re-analyze Duncan's design, as it was not properly designed up to standards with Duncans previous incarnations. This is no longer just an opinion among the fandom, as it's now objectively affecting the potential sales of a product.
Duncan has come in -many- shapes between the Railway Series and different seasons of the model era. Surely, surely, some level of creative liberties would be acceptable with him. Somehow it needs to be communicated to Mattel that the CGI mandate needs more flexibility, as Duncan would sell better by being more faithful to his historic designs. CGI Duncan also headlined only... Two? Episodes, maybe a couple more. A design that is barely half a decade old and was poorly received shouldn't be overruling the designs Duncan has been known to have for over half a century. Mattel, in the grand scheme of things, gains nothing financially by enforcing the mandate for Duncan; if anything, they're losing potential sales.
And now fans will be at Bachmann to "GiVe DuNcAn AnOtHeR gO".
Quote from: harrison05 on October 13, 2024, 09:14:00 PMAnd now fans will be at Bachmann to "GiVe DuNcAn AnOtHeR gO".
Considering people were looking forward to Duncan (especially when there was a good amount of pre-orders), it's completely reasonable for people to hope that Duncan is given another design attempt, and that a compromise can be found between all parties involved with the creation of the model. I don't think it really benefits the discussion to generalize the entire market in a condescending tone of voice.
Quote from: Cheeky_ULP on October 13, 2024, 09:30:48 PMQuote from: harrison05 on October 13, 2024, 09:14:00 PMAnd now fans will be at Bachmann to "GiVe DuNcAn AnOtHeR gO".
Considering people were looking forward to Duncan (especially when there was a good amount of pre-orders), it's completely reasonable for people to hope that Duncan is given another design attempt, and that a compromise can be found between all parties involved with the creation of the model. I don't think it really benefits the discussion to generalize the entire market in a condescending tone of voice.
I know people were looking forward to Duncan (I was too he's my favourite NG character) but people are pestering Bachmann and some at Trainworld like crazy about Duncan. Yes people are still allowed to say they want Duncan and can request him (that shows how popular he really is) but not constantly all the time. I think we all need to be patient, wait and see what happens with like you said "all parties involved with the creation of the model."
Quote from: harrison05 on October 13, 2024, 11:19:43 PMQuote from: Cheeky_ULP on October 13, 2024, 09:30:48 PMQuote from: harrison05 on October 13, 2024, 09:14:00 PMAnd now fans will be at Bachmann to "GiVe DuNcAn AnOtHeR gO".
Considering people were looking forward to Duncan (especially when there was a good amount of pre-orders), it's completely reasonable for people to hope that Duncan is given another design attempt, and that a compromise can be found between all parties involved with the creation of the model. I don't think it really benefits the discussion to generalize the entire market in a condescending tone of voice.
I know people were looking forward to Duncan (I was too he's my favourite NG character) but people are pestering Bachmann and some at Trainworld like crazy about Duncan. Yes people are still allowed to say they want Duncan and can request him (that shows how popular he really is) but not constantly all the time. I think we all need to be patient, wait and see what happens with like you said "all parties involved with the creation of the model."
It's going to happen inevitably for a little while since the news is fresh. I don't think there's much point in ridiculing or trying to police people for wanting the decision to be reconsidered. To add, if there was silence, then Bachmann and Mattel would simply assume that they made the right call and that there was not strong demand for Duncan, when that's obviously not the case.
It should be worth noting the large scale Diesel was at one point canceled a year after his original introduction. Two years went by and Bachmann was able to bring him back in production, likely due to fan requests and Bachmann being able to navigate a better price for the model. Paxton's introduction I'm sure was another big factor into this as he was announced a year after Diesel, being released around the same time.
I could see the same happen with Duncan, purely because he's the last remaining classic narrow gauge engine the response to the cancellation has been much, much stronger than the large scale Diesel was. At this point, it's really going to be a matter of Bachmann figuring out a better price for Duncan and a design that would be more widely appealing for all modelers. It's not impossible, but it will probably take a couple of years like how LS Diesel did before this happens. As Doug said, it's not totally "dead", the plug just needs to be pulled for the time being, so there's still hope.
It might be better in the long run for Bachmann to take their time with this one anyways so they can focus more on getting Sir Handel and all the previous narrow gauge stock done first. Once more progress has made on these, and Bachmann has a more solid plan with Mattel in terms of the design and pricing, I can see them looking into Duncan again. If not, then there's other characters out there for Bachmann to choose like Victor, Luke and/or Millie and saving Duncan for a much later time.
What if there is no hope for Duncan?
Quote from: Chaz on October 14, 2024, 02:30:57 AMIt might be better in the long run for Bachmann to take their time with this one anyways so they can focus more on getting Sir Handel and all the previous narrow gauge stock done first. Once more progress has made on these, and Bachmann has a more solid plan with Mattel in terms of the design and pricing, I can see them looking into Duncan again. If not, then there's other characters out there for Bachmann to choose like Victor, Luke and/or Millie and saving Duncan for a much later time.
You already addressed why Diesel was different thanks to Paxton, but wanted to talk about this part. I think it's rather telling that we've had products on indefinite hold for around 4 years now in DCC Thomas and Percy. I've seen some people suggest that it was just because of the clogged-up pipeline, however if that were the case I don't think they would have cancelled it. They're clearly willing to wait it out, so I doubt even when Sir Handel is done that'll change things. They're probably just going to get the more likely to be hit narrow gauge engines you said out of the way first, before risking a gamble on Duncan. Which makes sense to me. Maybe then they can use the model refs as well if they stall long enoug.
I do think there's something interesting. Trainworld has a feature to search by rank in people's watchlists. Sir Handel's only been up for preorder for a little bit and is already in top 7 of Thomas preorders, within top 35 period on Trainworld's website. These don't equal sales inherently but do equal interest. Now, what product is at the bottom? The gunpowder wagons are the least watchlisted Thomas item. I don't know for sure where Duncan fell, but lack of interest on that front and actual preorder numbers may have been a factor for their ultimate decision. Afterall I only know one person who actually preordered him
Quote from: DustyMarie53! on October 14, 2024, 09:41:01 AMQuote from: Chaz on October 14, 2024, 02:30:57 AMIt might be better in the long run for Bachmann to take their time with this one anyways so they can focus more on getting Sir Handel and all the previous narrow gauge stock done first. Once more progress has made on these, and Bachmann has a more solid plan with Mattel in terms of the design and pricing, I can see them looking into Duncan again. If not, then there's other characters out there for Bachmann to choose like Victor, Luke and/or Millie and saving Duncan for a much later time.
You already addressed why Diesel was different thanks to Paxton, but wanted to talk about this part. I think it's rather telling that we've had products on indefinite hold for around 4 years now in DCC Thomas and Percy. I've seen some people suggest that it was just because of the clogged-up pipeline, however if that were the case I don't think they would have cancelled it. They're clearly willing to wait it out, so I doubt even when Sir Handel is done that'll change things. They're probably just going to get the more likely to be hit narrow gauge engines you said out of the way first, before risking a gamble on Duncan. Which makes sense to me. Maybe then they can use the model refs as well if they stall long enoug.
I do think there's something interesting. Trainworld has a feature to search by rank in people's watchlists. Sir Handel's only been up for preorder for a little bit and is already in top 7 of Thomas preorders, within top 35 period on Trainworld's website. These don't equal sales inherently but do equal interest. Now, what product is at the bottom? The gunpowder wagons are the least watchlisted Thomas item. I don't know for sure where Duncan fell, but lack of interest on that front and actual preorder numbers may have been a factor. Afterall I only know one person who actually preordered him
Well yes they don't equal sales and it's also notable that everything in the top 25 has had some from of product reveal baring DCC Thomas and Percy which let's face it we all know how they'll look. So 26th is Diesel in N Scale then you go all the way to 32nd which is the Gondola in oxide red which is the second product in that list not to have had any product reveal and everything below that are also products that again haven't had any product samples yet besides the slate wagons which are just the same as what we have now in different colours. How many times have sales increased due to a product being shown on a stream? Most modellers I know wait until there's a visual to pre order and that's across the entire board not just Thomas. I mean you say Sir Handel is 7th but now but unless you've been tracking his movements for months it's just whataboutism. All i draw from that is people are more likely to "wishlist" something and order something when theres a product to show, its basic human nature and happens in every single industry going, sales increase when theres a product shown. Duncan might have had 1 pre order placed, he might have had 100, we don't know. However what we do know is what Doug said and a history to draw on. It's taken Bachmann a long time to get Sir Handel finished, I mean I say that and he's still not finished now, there's the wagons to finish off and get released too. Over the last few years 009 in the Thomas line has suffered abit because there's so much on the table to get done across the board. Let's just see what happens over the next few years. It's not like there's nothing else to look forward to and plenty ideas to bat around and put down on the table.
Adding on to my initial point Sir Handel shot up instantly once his preorders went live accordig to some friends at trainworld, both on an actual sales front and on the wishlist front, which predated the visual reveal. I will say I've only cataloged the actual positions on the wishlist side recently, so the sales is the more important point here. If Duncan didn't meet that same instant success that may have given them cold feet on top of the reasons already directly highlighted by Doug. It is speculative, and the specifics don't really matter because we already have at least one of the reasons outlined to us. But Doug did imply there was more he chose not to outline. So, I think trying to speculate to pinpoint what those other factors may have been is useful for future speculation. I do also think you're also right on the money. The lack of updates in the scale across the board and just how many undelivered products there are, is ultimately hurting the line in the long run. I hope they wait a while before announcing anything else for the scale, let the stuff already announced breathe and release. Then go from there with whoever and whatever rolling stock they want. They're making steady work through the pipeline as is. Slate wagons are done, the high side wagons are as well, all the TR stuff is now as well, all these things need to just ship. Sir Handel just needs to be painted and go into full production. If we can get the other 6 wagons finished before announcing anymore I think that'd ultimately be for the best.
Hi all,
We're going to lock this topic for now since the project has been cancelled, and the topic has become pure speculation about behind the scenes issues and sales. If we have any further updates, we will reopen the topic.