The description of these locos says "precision can motor". I was wondering if they come with a 5-pole motor. Thanks.
There was a review in Model Railroader of this locomotive and it also did not mention if the can motor was a 3 pole or 5 pole motor. However, it does come with flywheels. The testing of this engine produced very acceptable slow speeds and a realistic top speed of about 65 MPH.
For the money it certainly appears to be a winner. Note the DCC decoder is the basic Bachmann model and can easily be swapped for a higher end decoder should the purchaser want to upgrade the model to a higher standard.
Life was easy when there were straight 3 pole motors, five pole motors, all the way up to 12 pole motors. The more poles, the less cogging and the smoother the locomotive would start. Then came skewed armatures. A skew wound 3 pole motor can be as good as or better than a straight wound 5 pole motor. It is no longer possible to judge quality by the numbers alone.
Jim
Yes, I agree, the number of poles alone does not say anything definitive about the quality of a motor nowadays. Therefore, in addition to the number of poles, it would be useful to know the type of winding for the motors in these locomotives. Maybe the Bach-man can answer these questions.
Another term that can confuse, Can Motors. Can Motor in the past has been a higher quality motor than open frame but there are open frame motors with skewed armatures that might be as good. I have some Athearn/Roundhouse steamers with the open frame skewed armature and flywheel that seem to be as good as a can motor.
I also have some coreless 7 pole can motors that are a different animal.
Small motors for our trains are continually evolving.
Some manufacturers play games with the terms to confuse users.
I remember the Bach Man saying something like the 2-8-0 have a "high quality/performance" three pole motor. I do not remember him saying can motor though. Do not remember where the thread is.
I have a 1952 HO MDC all metal 4-4-2 with a Pittman open frame motor that draws over 2 amps at 12 volts DC. Just remotored with a NWSL can motor and flywheel that draws a max of 700 ma. at 12 volts but this is a heavy all metal loco and all metal tender.
Rich
The spectrum 2-8-0s had five-pole skew wound motors, while the current standard line version has a three-pole motor.
The current standard Bachmann diesels have drive trains with and without flywheels. The models without flywheels, can be had for about $25 new, while the ones with flywheels are advertised as "precision can motor" and "super quiet drive train" and cost around $60 new. The question is if the later have the same motors as the former.
I've recently got a standard non-DCC GP50 (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=522 (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=522))without flywheels and found it to be a decent loco, especially for $25. The trucks needed some adjustments to get rid of a grinding noise, but some tinkering was to be expected considering what I paid for it. Mechanically the GP50 runs well, it's 8-wheel drive, not noisy, it's quite smooth (even when using a basic Bachmann DC controller) and does reasonably well at slow speeds considering it doesn't have flywheels. To my surprise, it has a quite powerful 5-pole motor (the Kader 881, which was, I believe, the motor used in the Plus and Spectrum "high end" lines a few years ago). Not sure if this motor is straight or skew wound. The GP50 certainly exceeded my expectations.
I wonder what motors the new GP9 and RS-3 have. Is it the same Kader 881 motor as in the GP50? Mr. Bach-man?
Quote from: ACY on April 24, 2011, 03:52:46 PM
The spectrum 2-8-0s had five-pole skew wound motors, while the current standard line version has a three-pole motor.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,9806.0.html
Rich
Mr. Bach-man?
Quote from: ACY on April 24, 2011, 03:52:46 PM
The spectrum 2-8-0s had five-pole skew wound motors, while the current standard line version has a three-pole motor.
The DCC ready Spectrum 2-8-0's had the 5 pole motor, the DCC on board versions have the 3 pole motor. Apparently the 3 pole motor is a higher quality motor and is as good if not better than the original 5 pole motor. Note all the motors are can motors.
I have a few Spectrum 2-8-0 that came with factory DCC (no sound) and they have 5 pole motors. I never said the one motor is better or worse then the other, actually in this link
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,9806.0.html (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,9806.0.html), I say that the motors are similar in performance.
Quote from: Pacific Northern on April 27, 2011, 08:22:28 PM
Quote from: ACY on April 24, 2011, 03:52:46 PM
The spectrum 2-8-0s had five-pole skew wound motors, while the current standard line version has a three-pole motor.
The DCC ready Spectrum 2-8-0's had the 5 pole motor, the DCC on board versions have the 3 pole motor. Apparently the 3 pole motor is a higher quality motor and is as good if not better than the original 5 pole motor. Note all the motors are can motors.
I just got a standard version GP50 without flywheels (it is listed in the 2011 catalog) and counted the poles in the motor it came with. It is a 5-pole motor, the Kader 881. This motor was used in the Plus and Spectrum lines a few years ago. See my previous posts.
There are two price tags in the 2011 catalog for DCC equipped locos, depending on whether the drive train has or doesn't have flywheels. The new GP9 and RS-3 have flywheels and are advertised as "precision can motor" and "super quiet drive train". I was curious to know if Bachmann used the same 5-pole Kader 881 motor in them.
Since no one who actually has the new GP9 or RS-3 replied to my question, I hoped that Mr. Bach-man would see my posts and give an answer.
Dear Loco,
We use the best available motor for each model. I don't know how many poles they have; what's important is the operation.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
while i don't have a gp9 or rs3, i do have a gp7. since the gp9 and gp7 are the same length, it is safe to assume that they use the same drive. my gp7 is one of the best running locomotives i have. it has a very good motor, and enough weight to pull 9 or 10 cars up a 4% grade......
i am in the maket for more of all 3 types, if i could only get to a shop that stocks them......
Quote from: the Bach-man on April 27, 2011, 10:06:58 PM
Dear Loco,
We use the best available motor for each model. I don't know how many poles they have; what's important is the operation.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Thanks for your reply, unfortunately it doesn't answer my question. I wanted to know if the new GP9 and RS-3 use the same motor as the GP50, that is, the 5-pole Kader 881. This motor is working very well in the GP50; this $25 loco exceeded my expectations by a large margin. If the GP9 and RS-3 use the same motor and drive train with the addition of flywheels, then these locos should run really well.
Yes, I totally agree that what's most important is how the locomotive operates as a whole and not so much the motor. I don't buy a locomotive only because its advertising blurb says 5-pole skew- wound motor. However, answers such as "we use the best available motor" don't really help customers who also like technical details and not only good running locomotives. I appreciate that you tried to answer though, even if it was a political answer.
Quote from: jward on April 27, 2011, 11:27:47 PM
while i don't have a gp9 or rs3, i do have a gp7. since the gp9 and gp7 are the same length, it is safe to assume that they use the same drive. my gp7 is one of the best running locomotives i have. it has a very good motor, and enough weight to pull 9 or 10 cars up a 4% grade......
i am in the maket for more of all 3 types, if i could only get to a shop that stocks them......
Yeah, the drive train in the recent Bachmann locos seems to be quite good.
Quote from: Loco-Man on April 27, 2011, 11:46:28 PM
I appreciate that you tried to answer though, even if it was a political answer.
What do you mean by a political answer?
Quote from: ACY on April 28, 2011, 12:22:28 AM
Quote from: Loco-Man on April 27, 2011, 11:46:28 PM
I appreciate that you tried to answer though, even if it was a political answer.
What do you mean by a political answer?
I had asked if the motor used in the GP9 and RS-3 is the same motor as the one used in the GP50, which exceeded my expectations, and the answer I got was "we use the best motor available" ;D
Quote from: Loco-Man on April 28, 2011, 08:04:25 AM
Quote from: ACY on April 28, 2011, 12:22:28 AM
Quote from: Loco-Man on April 27, 2011, 11:46:28 PM
I appreciate that you tried to answer though, even if it was a political answer.
What do you mean by a political answer?
I had asked if the motor used in the GP9 and RS-3 is the same motor as the one used in the GP50, which exceeded my expectations, and the answer I got was "we use the best motor available" ;D
Right now it is a guess, Bachmann may not want to reveal all the details of the motors because of competition. Usually it takes a knowledgeable person to disect the loco and determine what the details are for the motor. It can be done.
Rich
Quote from: richg on April 28, 2011, 09:35:15 AM
Quote from: Loco-Man on April 28, 2011, 08:04:25 AM
Quote from: ACY on April 28, 2011, 12:22:28 AM
Quote from: Loco-Man on April 27, 2011, 11:46:28 PM
I appreciate that you tried to answer though, even if it was a political answer.
What do you mean by a political answer?
I had asked if the motor used in the GP9 and RS-3 is the same motor as the one used in the GP50, which exceeded my expectations, and the answer I got was "we use the best motor available" ;D
Right now it is a guess, Bachmann may not want to reveal all the details of the motors because of competition. Usually it takes a knowledgeable person to disect the loco and determine what the details are for the motor. It can be done.
Rich
The GP9 and RS-3 can be found at retailers already
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200586831117&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200586831286&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT
and the competition can do what I did with my GP50: take the motor out and count the poles. The competition surely has qualified people to figure out even more technical details than I did. I only wanted to know about the motor in the GP9s and RS-3s because I would buy one of each now if they had a motor that performs at least as well as the motor in the GP50. I guess I will have to wait until a local hobby shop gets a few and I can give them a run.
i don't think the competition is that worried about the motors in the bachmann stuff. most of them already build stuff as good as, if not better than, the bachmann stuff. and the few who don't really aren't that worried about quality.
and yes, when i got my first bachmann gp50 for my son, i was also impressed. my memories of bachmann stuff came from the mid 1980s trying to keep the pancake motored engines running on a display railroad. they truly have come a long way since those days, and are to be commended for the upgrades they've made to both locomotives and rolling stock.