Athern Genesis

[bobwrgt]

There are many modelers who add extra weight to every engine to get better traction. This to me is no better than having traction tires.

I have recently purchased several Hornby and Roco engines from the UK.
They have been using traction tires for years and years with tender drives.
The Roco engines run like Rolex watches. Both types will pull the paint off the walls, even on grades. The smallest engines you don't have to worry about, they pull just as well as the largest. Everything is in the tender with a very simple drive. This makes them a snap to work on. The boiler is empty, easy to work on and plenty of room to add electronics.

My brother in-law just built a track plan with 2% grades and 18 to 22 in curves. He is lucky to get a single engine to pull 7 cars around. Double figure 8 with lots of switches. If he wants longer trains he will have to add weight or look for traction tires.

I have the Athearn 2 8 2  and have removed the front and rear truck springs, along with adding a lead tool box to the front. This has very much improved traction. These would be great engines if they added traction tires.

Bob

[bobwrgt]

I forgot to mention i like long trains. I have no grades and have both 18 and 22in radius. I run a 21 car freight train and a 12 car passenger train.
I have over 100 engines with no duplicates and every one of them will pull these trains. I don't keep removing or adding cars for each engine.

Bob

[Atlantic Central]

Traction tires have been used, mostly on lower end, light weight trains for years. I have used heavy locos since my first mantua kit in the early 60's It didn't need traction tires then and it still doesn't. Hauling 50 cars was its ads selling point. My latest kit is the Bowser USRA light mike and that doesn't need TT's either. The only locos that might need them are my GE 44 tonner and my spectrum 0-6-0t. But when you get into small engines, you will have a problem with electrical pick-up when TT's are used.
    The new locos with TT's such as some BLI units really don't need them. How many here run prototype length trains on their layouts? If you stay within the parameters of the loco, you will NOT need TT's.
   For steam, I use a simple formula to determine correct train length. I add the number of drivers and trailing truck wheels and divide by 2 for passenger cars and add all wheels and divide by 2 for freight. Most of us have small layouts and that keeps the trains short and keeps the locos from tearing themselves apart.
    For diesels, mine are all the same, 8 car freights, 4 car passenger. As I only have 3 passenger cars, they don't pull them.
    I have no hills, so grades aren't a problem, but the curves are, so trains are kept short. Any way, wheel slip is a good thing and keeps the loco from self destructing.
    If you want to test your engines to see how many cars you can pull, go for it. But please don't fault me when you traction tired loco goes up in smoke because it really wasn't meant to pull that many cars.

I understand, and for you I'm sure that's fine.

Personally I do haul prototype or near prototype length trains, and so do MANY of my friends. You are perfectly welcome to pull only 8 cars with whatever locos, large, medium or small, that you own. The point of the hobby is to have fun.

To me locos like 2-8-2's or 4-8-4's hauling 8 cars look ridiculous. My average freight train is 25-35 cars, some are longer. I do have mild grades (1.8%) and double head locos when needed. Mainline passenger limiteds are 7-10 cars.

If I only had room for that size train, I would model a prototype that was suitable, like the Ma & Pa. But since I have the room, the resources and the interest, I model a 1953, east coast/Appalachian mountain region Class I railroad.

Interestingly enough one of my traction tire locos is a Mantua General.

I understand the bias against them based on all the "old" facts from years ago - that is like judging a new Ford based on a 71 Pinto. Many of those old locos you refer to where junk, with or without traction tires. I knew that then, that's why I never owned any of them.

My Broadway N&W Class A has pulled 80 cars around a layout with 1.8% grades. My Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 will do nearly that well. My bachmann 4-8-2 Heavies will pull 25-30 cars under those conditions. I use 2 Bachmann 2-8-0's to pull 40 car hopper trains.

Part of my long train secret is very free rolling trucks.

And, as I said before, in a perfect world the manufaturers give us the choice with a spare axle/driver set. But why would I "fault" you if my traction tires fail? In most cases they are easily replaced or subsituted with the non traction tire spare - where is the problem?

Seems to me you are creating a problem where one does not exist.

Bachmann has chosen not to use traction tires on any of their newer locos so far, that's fine. That's also why I don't own a Russian Decopod. I have no use for locos that cannot haul a resonable train, with or without traction tires.

I do have a somewhat large fleet of Bachmann Spectrum steam locos:

6 - USRA 4-8-2 Heavy
8 - 2-8-0
3 - 2-6-6-2

Again, I am very happy with their performance. I am also happy with the performance of my BLI, PCM, Proto locos with traction tires. In fact, I wish all my Proto locos where the traction tire versons, then maybe they would pull as well as the Bachmann's.

As for diesels, most of mine run in 3-4 unit sets, all units powered (I have never owned a dummy unit in my 35+ years in this hobby) and have no trouble with 50 or more cars. They are Proto2000, Intermountain, Genesis, PCM, older reworked Athearn, etc. None are older train set junk, none have traction tires, none need traction tires.

Having been in this hobby since 1967 and having worked in several hobby shops, I have long since stopped assuming that otherS are modeling, or want to model, the same way I am. It is an assumption that will always offend or alienate your fellow modelers.

I do all kinds of things others don't think is "right" - I don't care, but I don't assume anyone is doing it my way. I offer my knowledge and experiance for others to take or leave. And I do comment when it seems others would have everyone do it "their" way.

I vote for choice and up to date facts, not restriction and old bias from out dated info.

Sheldon

[uncbob]

My Bachman 2-8-0 pulls 24 coal and 12 ore cars loaded around my 22"oval with no problems

It is way too long for a 4X10 but I wanted to see how it did

Normally run 6-12 coal or 6-10 box/gondola or 12 ore 

[pdlethbridge]

    Sheldon, your layout is the exception rather than the rule. Mine is a total of two 4x8's. The majority of my locos are bachmann and after testing each one to its limit I'm convinced that adding TT's to any of these engines would ruin them. For example, I tested a long freight on the SD-45, a rather heavy diesel. It just sat there and didn't even spin its wheels. Had I run the test longer, it would have started smoking and TT's would not have helped. The components in the Bachmann engines are just not built for heavy use applications.

[Atlantic Central]

pd,

First, I agree not every loco would benifit from traction tires, especially not diesels, except maybe the smallest of them.

Second, I have no Bachmann road diesels (standard or Spectrum) to compare/judge/test. Most of their diesel products are out of my era or lack detail available from others - so I have not purchased the few (FT) that are in my era.

Third, I doubt any well engineered HO scale road diesel model needs traction tires. My Proto2000 GP7's (most likely the lightest road unit out there) pull just fine. each unit can handle 20 or so cars, two or three handle my average trains with ease.

Steam is another story, the physics is complex, but I do agree most Bachmann models as offered now would most likely not benifit from traction tires. But the other products out there are engineered differently.

Why is my layout the exception? Do you have the inside stats on layout size/ownership throughout the country? Why do you assume you are median? Here where I live many people have layouts that fill all or most of 1500 sq ft basements. A quick count gave me 10 within 10 miles of my house. Within 25 miles I'll bet its 100.

Sheldon

[pdlethbridge]

  64 square feet is all I have room for, and all I can afford to maintain and handle. I can't crawl under anything to fix it. Every thing is within easy reach. I would imagine that if you took a poll on the board you would find a majority of small layouts, 100 square feet or less.

[rustyrails]

Hey, Sheldon,
My basement is 850 sq feet and the train room shares it with a guest room, bath, and office.  I have about 200 sq feet for my train room, but I have to share THAT with the pellet stove.  As it is, I have more room than I have ever had before for a layout, but I've always had a loyout.  A few years ago MR did a survey and found that the average layout was less than 100 sq ft...65-70 sticks in my mind.  You know it already, but you live a privileged life amongst privileged neighbors, and if you don't know it, you need to get out more.  Enjoy.
Rusty  

[SteamGene]

I guess my main problem with the AG USRA light Mike and Pacific is the fact that Athearn knows it has/had a problem and is fixing it, apparently wit the new run, but is doing nothing for those of us with the old run.  I'd be more than willing to trade my old ones in for new ones and send Athearn $25 or so for each.  But that is not what they are willing to do.
Gene

[Yampa Bob]

I wrote a rather lengthy post on the topic, but the forum must have "ate it". Oh well, it was probably in the category of "Who cares what Bob thinks". 

I'm not typing it again, so will just say, I only run 4 Overtons or 4 J&S Excursions, so I have no concern about "breaking it". Anyway, my wife says "they're cute", she runs the heck ouf of them. 

[rogertra]

I guess my main problem with the AG USRA light Mike and Pacific is the fact that Athearn knows it has/had a problem and is fixing it, apparently wit the new run, but is doing nothing for those of us with the old run.  I'd be more than willing to trade my old ones in for new ones and send Athearn $25 or so for each.  But that is not what they are willing to do.
Gene

Ditto Gene.

Athearn well and truly shafted the purchasers of the Genesis 4-6-2 and 2-8-2.

[Atlantic Central]

rustyrails,

You can call it privilaged if you like, I make no apologies for my success, but I call it education (formal and informal) and hard work. Judging by the number of homes bigger and nicer than mine that I drive past every day, there are a lot of people who are more "privilaged" than me, although they may find that discription just as offensive as I do. I wasn't "given" anything but opportunity.

Sheldon

[Pacific Northern]

pd,

Why is my layout the exception? Do you have the inside stats on layout size/ownership throughout the country? Why do you assume you are median? Here where I live many people have layouts that fill all or most of 1500 sq ft basements. A quick count gave me 10 within 10 miles of my house. Within 25 miles I'll bet its 100.

Sheldon

I would imagine that this is typical for most neighbourhoods................

[Pacific Northern]

Hey, Sheldon,
My basement is 850 sq feet and the train room shares it with a guest room, bath, and office.  I have about 200 sq feet for my train room, but I have to share THAT with the pellet stove.  As it is, I have more room than I have ever had before for a layout, but I've always had a loyout.  A few years ago MR did a survey and found that the average layout was less than 100 sq ft...65-70 sticks in my mind.  You know it already, but you live a privileged life amongst privileged neighbors, and if you don't know it, you need to get out more.  Enjoy.
Rusty  

I asked that very question as to what was the average size HO model railroad just recently on the Model Railroader Forum and received very little useful information. Would you have any idea what issue that information was released?

[rustyrails]

PacNorth: I don't know the date.  It was several years ago.  I remember filling out a questionaire.  I'll go digging through my library and see what I can find.  NMRA probably has some figures, too.  Perhaps you could start a new thread since this has all sort of moved away from the vagaries of Genesis steamers.
Rusty