Anyone here collect Bachmann Branchline?

[Mark Damien]

David,
Like you, I have a fondness for Hornby [Tri-ang, scalectric] Wren, Bachmann uk  & Peco. But liking something, even a lot, does not make it work better.

Peco has already made moves to gain a larger share of the US market by producing track closer to NMRA standards.

We should pander to the NMRA standard because 00 scale uses HO scale track & therefore should follow that standard. If a Euro tourist drove his left hand drive car on the right hand side of the road in the UK, I should think you'd be a bit miffed. If he chooses to drive his euro car in the UK, he should follow the STANDARDS there.

I mentioned the varying Back to Back measurements on all the New Hornby Pacifics. In the worst case, it equates to eight inches difference in prototypical terms - can you imagine the carnage. Actually there would be none as the it would not make it out of the yard.

RP-25 -  Hornby loosely follows this recommended practice, but does not follow other more important standards. Bachmann UK does follow RP-25 closely, & tends to follow the NMRA standards as well - to a certain degree; see eight axle tenders mentioned earlier.


We must remember the NMRA standards have been with us since 1936. One of the reasons it was created was because of this topic. Below is the beginning of the second item in the NMRA mission statement. Rather a humble line...certainly nothing to feel threatened by.

"The purposes of the National Model Railroad Association are, in part, to promote, stimulate, foster and encourage by all manner and means the art and craft of model railroading, to preserve of the history, science and technology thereof, and to advance the global model railroading community through education, development of standards and recommended practices, advocacy, and social interaction".

[Seasaltchap]

Mark,

OO is a compromise, where the development of "Toy Trains" has been an evolving process to one of "Model Railways/Railroad"

You appear to me to be well vested in these matters. I think it is only fair that you disclose your interest if it goes beyond this forum.

It is all well and fine for NMRA to rule on HO, but they have not ruled for OO running on 16.5mm track.

Finescale 4mm OO runs on 18.83mm.

Regards
Stewart

[Seasaltchap]

Mark,

I see you argue for OO on HO track to conform to the NMRA for HO.

It is 4mm, not 3.5, and the NMRA clearance standards on lineside/platforms/curves will also be out of whack.

Just how flexible are these standards?

[David(UK)]

Hmmmm. NMRA -  National Model Railroad Association.
Definition of National
Characteristic of or peculiar to the people of a nation;
Limited to or in the interests of a particular nation;
Of or relating to or belonging to a nation or country.

ie We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us!

[Seasaltchap]

David has it. While NMRA is growing in esteem, I think NMRA is far from perfect in bringing togther standards "Internationally"

In 1946 my dad bought me a TRIX HO out of a Toy Shop window layout in Northampton. It was made pre-war and was tinplate. It was also "course scale", as was Hornby "Duble O" sic.

HO itself has had very rough beginnings, and for the NMRA to rule "National Standards" - that is all that it is.

Europe has MOROP. 220v, 50 cycles, and bayonet fittings, and a multiplicity of "National" interests that make their conventions "International".

[David(UK)]

Still it is nice to know all my 0n30 stock runs very well on my "Peco, Hornby,Airfix, Mainline, Lima track, even Bachmann EZ track"

[Seasaltchap]

If this "back to back" issue had merit, then I too would have problems running OO UK Hornby/Bachmann/Mainline/Dapol on US/European HO specific points/turnouts, and that has not been my experience.

[Mark Damien]

Stewart,

Quote : "I think it is only fair that you disclose your interest if it goes beyond this forum".

My interests in this matter goes way beyond this forum, but are personal & I have no affiliation with any body, group or company. My interests are to help secure the future of this great hobby. It is dieing away - have you noticed? Hornby was at the doors of receivership & is only with us because it adopted motors in the [Merchant Navy class] loco in 2000, just as the bulk of their customers wanted. If they would have persisted with their Tender drive, they would be long gone.

Although my head is impressed by US outline, my heart belongs to British outline. When I see how perfectly US outline runs due to Standards being applied to track & wheel, it breaks my heart to think British outline will not conform to any standard, not even 00.


Quote : "It is 4mm, not 3.5, and the NMRA clearance standards on lineside/platforms/curves will also be out of whack".

This is true & I would not expect you to change any of these. I am only drawing your attention to the very thing that makes operations functional, the all important wheel & track standards combination. If you don't have this, then you're 'winging it' every time you run though your turnouts.

Quote : "If this "back to back" issue had merit, then I too would have problems running OO UK".

Does "back to back" have merit - ask the prototypical railroads.
I mentioned earlier how I can back sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers in succession, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph. You cannot do this without having the Wheels Back to Back & the turnouts, crossings etc, mating.
If I have a derailment with rolling stock that complies with a standard, it is not a case of "oh, well. I'll just put that back on the track & carry on". It is a matter of concern, because I have eliminated to a great extent, the "CHANCE" of a derailment by Standards, so that if one occurs, I know there is a tangible problem. This is something I can fix, be it a wheelset not conforming or faulty, or the trackwork is out, or broken. The Problem can be solved.
What I really don't want to fix is my late model Hornby pacifics in order for them to run successfully on any turnout, even Peco. To rectify the fault with these locos requires a complete strip down to bare Driver, Leading & Trailing & Tender wheelsets, adjusting to the correct Back to Back, then requartering the driving wheels &  reassembling the loco. If you have any of Hornby or Bachmann late model steam locos, you know how wonderfully cluttered with fragile detail they are. Not to mention the delicacy of the connecting rods, crossheads & valve gear. All of which will be in jeopardy from a strip down.
It seems odd to me, that at no additional cost to anyone, this problem could be solved at the factory, by applying correct Back to Back measurements.

In regards to your 00 UK stock running OK. It depends a lot on what it is. As mentioned earlier British outline products seem not to follow any standards on their wheelsets. Indeed I have lots of smaller 00 locos & rolling stock which accidentally or not, do conform to correct Back to Back & all run perfectly on NMRA HO & reasonably well on Peco.
They still run on Peco because the flanges [that do follow RP-25 for maximum flange height], still do not comply to the flange profile, instead opting for an angled flat face with sharp flanges to "FLANGE" around the outside of Peco turnouts as they do not use the Check rail. In this case you could argue that two wrongs, make a right. But, this is putting in a patch to make the outcome appear more acceptable. The smart money would be to rectify the Cause of the problem, not modify the result.

==============

David

Quote : "We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us!".

Yes you're absolutely right, you don't have to. But in the absence of correctly gauged 00 track & manufacturers who refuse to adhere to any standard at all in regards to wheel standards, the best option would be to follow a standard that is in place & works.

Back to Back standards & accompanying track standards are a measurable engineering certainty, resulting in calculated efficiency & reliability.

=======================

David & Stewart, I don't mean to offend you, but I believe I have. Your faith & steadfastness does you credit, & I admire that. Your friends must be very comfortable when you're around.

[David(UK)]

Quote
I mentioned earlier how I can back sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers in succession, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph.
Unquote.

Hmmm, not exactly protypical is it?
And don't forget OO is geared towards the British modeller who rarely has the luxury of running trains anywhere near that layout size in the average UK House - true a few Model railway clubs could possibly achieve a train set of that length, but they'd get laughed out of the hall if they tried your trick.

[Mark Damien]

David,
This is the original statement I referred to :

quote : "But you really have to experience Propelling over sixty pieces of rolling stock through eight turnouts & double crossovers consecutively, at scale speeds in excess of 50 mph to really appreciate how a uniform standard for track & Wheels [NMRA] improves running.
NB :  The scale 50mph in reverse was achieved while testing trackwork only. I do not usually operate this way."


As it says this was a TEST ONLY, as I knew it was an impossible task to propel even ten 00 or HO wagons through a couple of Peco points at a around a scale 15 mph[a realistic speed even for a short layout] reliably without a derailment.
I wanted to see what my new NMRA  wheels & track is capable of & it exceeded my expectation to the point of making several runs at this speed, I thought I better quit - just in case. Yes, I was pretty incredulous to, but that is why I am pushing for modeling of prototypical standards, to achieve prototypical running.

Also there was Fast Tracks 50,000 cycles over matched track & wheels, without a derailment - this would be absolutely impossible with 00 scale on Peco Turnouts.

Note: I believe Peco make a fine product that is reliable & robust, & I would never want any harm to come to them, but they need to go that one step further to achieve a true model representation of prototypical pointwork.

Stewart wrote "OO is a compromise, where the development of "Toy Trains" has been an evolving process to one of "Model Railways/Railroad"". This is true & as 00 scale models are starting to now LOOK like the prototypes, maybe they should run like prototypes. It is completely achieveable now.

[Seasaltchap]

This string has boiled-down to a HOOT.

The local MRC for PECO staff is Axminster MRC. Their layout in a private garage is/was of US practice, on Santa Fe etc. - all US manufacture locos and rolling stock.

They are not going to be buying someone elses trackwork for it - and there is/was a lot of it!

Peco have "Universal Code 100" where the flange heights are greater.

I agree, NMRA have taken the cudgel to DCC. Bachmann have initially entered the market on the back of Lenz with their accredited manufacture; although they have gone elsewhere for Dynamis. I think if Hornby are to be in the DCC market, they should submit to NMRA Standards for DCC.

From my e-mail - TODAY

"Hornby has promised to send us their system for conformance testing. To date, we have not received their unit.

Didrik Voss, MMR
Manager, C&I Group
Manager, S&C Dept
NMRA"

[Mark Damien]

Dear All,

If my entries appeared in any way derisive, pls accept my sincerest apologies. I do get a little passionate sometimes. Thankyou for drawing my attention to it Stewart.

Cudgel - I have never seen or heard this word - I looked it up though - good word - learning all the time!

[Seasaltchap]

Mark,

Please don't feel that way. There was no intention against you.

I was writing to the fact that Hornby are also keeping NMRA waiting on the DCC project. The hoot being that Hornby will string things out for as long as they can to settle OO standards running on 16.5mm gauge.

Bachmann have now stolen the march on Hornby with the new Dynamis carrying NMRA certification.

Regards

[keddiewye]

Hmmmm. NMRA -  National Model Railroad Association.
Definition of National
Characteristic of or peculiar to the people of a nation;
Limited to or in the interests of a particular nation;
Of or relating to or belonging to a nation or country.

ie We Brits don't have to abide by your national standards as our OO is peculiar to us!

few things are more precious than a proud Briton standing tall against the oppression of the NMRA

[Seasaltchap]

keddiewye : But the market it is still good enough for Bachmann Europe to produce some pretty good "Branchline" and "Blue Ribbon" models.

I just luv-em!

Regards