POCHER 4-4-0 GENOA

[CNE Runner]

Good morning Bob. I guess I misunderstood the number of operating rules you came up with. Mine are similar to yours:

       1.  It is MY railroad in MY little world.
         2.  Not everything HAS to be prototypical.
         3.  If you don't like the second rule...see the first one!

I have found that this advertisement of intent has kept at bay those that find it necessary to rivet count. There is no way, in the space I have available, that I could do justice to any part of the prototype Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut RR. Therefore one takes artistic (I like that word...even if I ain't one) license.

Ray

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Say Jeff, check out the thread "Headlamp for 4-4-0" on which RichG posted (in the HO section of the forum). He took the Richmond 4-4-0 (definitely an early 20th century American BTW) and added an oil headlamp.

Yes, I saw that, thanks!    And kudos to RichG for the accomplishment.

Anybody know off-hand when electric headlights began to be applied to locomotives? I'm betting somebody on this forum knows. ... 

If you want to see some odd-looking engines, hunt up pictures of Pennsylvania Railroad locomotives taken in the 1910s. I've never researched this, but it appears that the so-called "Standard Railroad of the World" was still using box-shaped coal-oil headlights on its engines until, perhaps, sometime around World War I. A Pacific with a box headlight just doesn't look right.

I could make the same complaint about MDC/Roundhouse Overton passenger equipment as I did about the older Pocher/Rivarossi/AHM cars, no smoke jacks for the car stoves. Fortunately, the old Roundhouse kits apparently came packaged with a "standard" set of details, like toolboxes and such, so when I built a set of Overton cars, I drilled a hole in each car roof and used the smoke jack that I think really was intended for Roundhouse's caboose kits. I should have shortened the pipe, though; they're a little too tall for the car roof.

[CNE Runner]

Hey Jeff - The change from oil headlamps to electric headlights is a very tough date to ascertain. Much depended upon the size of the railroad and the location within that railroad. For example: one would expect that large lines, such as the Pennsylvania and New York Central, converted to electric headlights before branch lines...simple economic logic. However, within those lines, the more remote branches received anything new much later than the main line trains. The installation of a steam generator can't be easy nor cheap.

After searching through my material, I was unable to get even an approximate date for the headlight/lamp exchange. John W. Orr tells of his father's first night trip with an electric headlight in his book Set Up Running (a must have for any steam reference shelf). I spent approximately a half-hour trying to locate the reference and gave up...it is in there.

In the book, O.P. Orr was known to keep a cake of Bon Ami for the headlight lens and reflectors as well as a bottle of campor, which when added to the kerosene produced a flame of greater brilliance. He was also known to affix a button on a pin to the middle of the wick to spread the flame. I know, that doesn't answer your question.

I decided to take a different tack: Within the Orr book is a group of photographs of the engines that O.P. Orr ran during his long career with the Pennsylvania Railroad. It was my belief that some time frame could be established by observing the type of headlamp/light that appeared in the picture. They are as follows:

H3 Consolidation    1904-1910      oil headlamp
Class D 4-4-0             1907            oil headlamp
Class H6b Consolidation  1914      oil headlamp
L1 Mikado                    1921           oil headlamp
Pacific                      1933-1934      electric headlight

It should be noted that O.P. ran on the Pennsylvania's Ralston, PA district...which was considered back country. At least this gives you an idea of the rough time period that one line embraced electricity. Perhaps one of our Pennsy fans can come up with a better date?

I went and looked at all my Overton passenger cars (redecorated for the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut RR) and you are right...no smoke jacks!! How this get by me I will never know. See?..you always learn something on this forum. BTW Jeff...the Johnson Bar is an extremely inefficient way to moderate valve movement and was replaced by the screw valve...I do like your handle though.

Regards,
Ray

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Hey Jeff - The change from oil headlamps to electric headlights is a very tough date to ascertain. Much depended upon the size of the railroad and the location within that railroad. For example: one would expect that large lines, such as the Pennsylvania and New York Central, converted to electric headlights before branch lines...simple economic logic. However, within those lines, the more remote branches received anything new much later than the main line trains. The installation of a steam generator can't be easy nor cheap.

After searching through my material, I was unable to get even an approximate date for the headlight/lamp exchange. John W. Orr tells of his father's first night trip with an electric headlight in his book Set Up Running (a must have for any steam reference shelf). I spent approximately a half-hour trying to locate the reference and gave up...it is in there.

In the book, O.P. Orr was known to keep a cake of Bon Ami for the headlight lens and reflectors as well as a bottle of campor, which when added to the kerosene produced a flame of greater brilliance. He was also known to affix a button on a pin to the middle of the wick to spread the flame. I know, that doesn't answer your question.

I decided to take a different tack: Within the Orr book is a group of photographs of the engines that O.P. Orr ran during his long career with the Pennsylvania Railroad. It was my belief that some time frame could be established by observing the type of headlamp/light that appeared in the picture. They are as follows:

H3 Consolidation    1904-1910      oil headlamp
Class D 4-4-0             1907            oil headlamp
Class H6b Consolidation  1914      oil headlamp
L1 Mikado                    1921           oil headlamp
Pacific                      1933-1934      electric headlight

It should be noted that O.P. ran on the Pennsylvania's Ralston, PA district...which was considered back country. At least this gives you an idea of the rough time period that one line embraced electricity. Perhaps one of our Pennsy fans can come up with a better date?

Oy, I sure didn't mean to make a lot of work for you, Ray. I hope you enjoyed yourself. 

Again, based mostly on photos I've seen in books, I still tend to think the Pennsylvania started switching to electric headlights around World War I. Certainly by the 1920s electric headlights were in use on what is now the Northeast Corridor (which was electrified in the 1930s). I'm sure I've seen a photo of the "Lindbergh Atlantic" taken on the day she made her historic run in 1927, and she has an electric headlight. (I think she's an E6s, but I can't remember her number at the moment.  )

I went and looked at all my Overton passenger cars (redecorated for the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut RR) and you are right...no smoke jacks!! How this get by me I will never know. See?..you always learn something on this forum.

No jacks--no car stoves. Unless the ND&C has that newfangled steam heat, I feel sorry for your passengers in the winter. 

BTW Jeff...the Johnson Bar is an extremely inefficient way to moderate valve movement and was replaced by the screw valve...I do like your handle though.

Regards,
Ray

Thanks.    Oh, I know that. My point in choosing it is just that it's the older form of gearshift. Besides, "Power Reverse Jeff" just wouldn't do it. 

BTW, Happy Easter, Happy Passover, Happy Spring, everyone! I expect I'll be away till some time next week. 

[richG]

Carbon arc lamps and electric lamps. A part of locomotive evolution many people miss.

http://www.ideashelper.com/railway_headlamp_history.htm

http://www.trainweb.org/gyra/history.htm

http://einhornpress.com/headlights.aspx

http://home.att.net/~nginfo/closeup/headlights2.jpg

http://books.google.com/books?id=E7JKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=pyle+locomotive+arc+headlights&source=web&ots=cBrbsCeqSA&sig=jnRrizBE_2_-5OFw2BBGr7SWWLE&hl=en#PPA320,M1

http://www.trainweb.org/gyra/misc/turbo.htm

Search Google for locomotive acetylene headlights for more headlight info. The gas generator was usually behind or under the fireman's position.


Rich

[CNE Runner]

RichG - absolutely dead on with your research. I enjoyed reading (and learning) about a facet of railroading I knew little about before. Thank you for doing the web search. Jeff, it was no problem doing the limited research...I actually had fun. I, also, thought that the electric headlight would have made fairly widespread application before WWI and RichG's research supported that. Oh, and you are correct in writing the Pennsylvania Atlantics were E6s (there were several models).

No, the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut was too small a line to have steam heat in all their passenger cars. They did have a parlor car (on a 57-mile road for gosh sakes) that did have steam heat and therefore had to be coupled directly behind the locomotive...all the rest had stoves. Interesting point was that the railroad owned several box cars that had a centrally located stove to keep produce from freezing and therefore spoiling (milk cars were too well insulated for that to be a worry). I suppose a smoke jack, protruding from a box car or two, wouldn't be out of the question.

Jeff - I like your handle just the way you have it. Happy Spring also. We will be "on the road" (not railroad - more's the pity) for the next 3 to 4 months; but will try to stay up with the forum via our laptop.

Ray

[ebtnut]

Couple of points--First the old AHM Reno/Genoa models are actually oversized for HO.  I don't think they are quite S scale, but definitly oversized.  If you ever get the chance, compare one with a brass PFM Reno and you'll see. 

As for electric headlights, they started coming in around 1900, but inertia with the railroads was rampant, and they were often slow to accept new stuff.  And there was also the matter of expense.  Those generators cost money, above and beyond the cost of the headlight itself.  In some cases, the large railroads had large inventories of parts for "old" stuff and didn't want to have to start inventorying new stuff.  I might also point out that not all of the old box headlights used kerosene.  Some were designed to use gas generated by calcium carbide (the same stuff used in miner's head lamps prior to electric battery lights).  The gas (acetylene, IIRC) burned much brighter than kerosene.  Often, the tip-off to carbide lamps were two small tanks mounted near the stack.  You poured some water in the tank with the calcium carbide, and the chemical reaction generated the gas which was fed to the headlight. 

[richG]

Oil, Acetylene, electric light comparisons.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OTooAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA717&lpg=PA717&;  You can download this book.dq=locomotive+acetylene+headlights&source=bl&ots=wFZXe_crUz&sig=LQQpnX09pPHHTTEE260LayBE1YQ#PPA713,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=F002AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA125&dq=locomotive+acetylene+headlights#PPA124,M1

Car lighting and heating. Probably more than you want to know. Air brakes are also in this book. You can download the book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qyhWAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Westinghouse+Air+Brake+%3B+New+York+Air+Brake+%3B+Car+Lighting+%3B+Car+Heating+...&lr=#PRA3-PA45,M1

I have Pocher, Tyco and AHM locos and they are a little over size. I understand that model railroading is an analogy of the real thing and all analogies break down somewhere. Mine break down at this point and with code 100 rail, plus radii I use on my layout. I can live with it.

Rich

[CNE Runner]

Ebnut and RichG - I had a Gem brass American 4-4-0 and you are absolutely correct in saying that it was much smaller than either the AHM/Rivarossi, Bachmann, etc. Americans. When I sold it, at a train show, the buyer wanted to know if it was HO and not some smaller scale! Even with the oversized models that were produced, I don't think there is enough room for a decoder - and there certainly isn't enough room for a speaker. Oh well...maybe some gifted electrical engineer will come up with a decoder that will fit (sound would probably have to be in a trailing car).

We are vendoring a train show today and I am down to a Bachmann Jupiter and an AHM Bowker. All the other engines of this genre have sold in the past year and I can't seem to find any others. Naturally we will search the "junk bins" for old time Bachmann et.al. cars that are in need of a loving home.

Have a great weekend,
Ray

[CNE Runner]

I thought I would pass on an interesting story about old time locomotives and trains show sales. Yesterday we vendored at a local train show and did fairly well (just a little under last year's sales at the same show...I'm sure having the show on Easter weekend didn't help matters any). I had a Bachmann Jupiter engine [4-4-0] and an AHM Bowker locomotive [2-4-0] for sale in the $20 range. A gentleman came up to the booth and said he wanted to purchase both engines for a 10% price reduction. As I was about to agree (I had schlepped these locomotives to countless shows and didn't want to bring them home yet again), two other fellows said they would pay me $5 more than the asking price! For the next 4 or 5 minutes these three individuals began bidding against each other. The end result was that I sold both engines (we decided to split up the "package") for twice what I was asking!!! Hmmm, it seems to me that there definitely is a market for old time items.

It gets more interesting: one of the fellows (the one who purchased the Bowker) is an aerospace electrical engineer for one of the big NASA/defense contractors in Huntsville. He said he was going to install a DCC + sound decoder in the engine. [This AHM locomotive is not tender drive.] I mentioned the Z-gauge decoder and he marched over to a fellow that sold all sorts of Digitrax material and had a long conversation with the vendor. As he was leaving, he announced that by next week he would have a DCC/sound equipped AHM Bowker engine!! Unfortunately I didn't get his name or address as I would love to know how he makes out (I told him about this forum so maybe he will post his results). He said, after the Bowker, his next challenge was to put [at least] DCC in a Bachmann Jupiter. As I have said before: there are some really intelligent and talented people out there.

BTW: I did pick up a couple of Pocher "junker" flat cars and an AHM tool car (30') that will look really nice after repainting/decorating and weathering. It is always good to recycle some of your earnings.

Ray

[Jim2903]

I would also like to see how he manages to get DCC and sound in a Bowker. I got one of those locos in the early 1980s (still have it ... somewhere ... in pieces, likely) -- great looking little engine, but an awful runner. The huge motor fills the cab, and then some. I wish him luck with his sound project -- he's gonna need it.

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

I thought I would pass on an interesting story about old time locomotives and trains show sales. Yesterday we vendored at a local train show and did fairly well (just a little under last year's sales at the same show...I'm sure having the show on Easter weekend didn't help matters any). I had a Bachmann Jupiter engine [4-4-0] and an AHM Bowker locomotive [2-4-0] for sale in the $20 range. A gentleman came up to the booth and said he wanted to purchase both engines for a 10% price reduction. As I was about to agree (I had schlepped these locomotives to countless shows and didn't want to bring them home yet again), two other fellows said they would pay me $5 more than the asking price! For the next 4 or 5 minutes these three individuals began bidding against each other. The end result was that I sold both engines (we decided to split up the "package") for twice what I was asking!!! Hmmm, it seems to me that there definitely is a market for old time items.

Actually, this kind of doesn't surprise me. I've been looking for a junk Bowker for parts (headlight, tender shell, for example), and lately even junk Bowkers seem to be selling for more on eBay than I'm prepared at this time to pay for a junker. 

I got one of those locos  [Bowker] in the early 1980s (still have it ... somewhere ... in pieces, likely) -- great looking little engine, but an awful runner.

Mine was, too--an awful runner--until I switched to an MRC Railpower 1370 to power my little pike, and now my Bowker runs a heckuva lot better than it used to.

And speaking of these Rivarossi engines being oversized for HO, surely the Bowker is even more oversized in comparison to the Genoa, etc. The Bowker was purchased by the V&T as a yard engine.

Quite possibly this summer I may get to see the Bowker and the Genoa "in the flesh" at the California State Railroad Museum. 

[ebtnut]

If you want to see the Bowker run, look up the movie classic "Union Pacific".  She is an important "supporting actress".  The loco was rescued from a logging railroad in Nevada in the 1930's and put in running shape for the movie,  And yes, the Rivarossi model is oversized compared to the original.  I think this may have been part due to the fact that Rivarossi wanted to use that big pancake motor in all their models, regardless of prototype fidelity.