POCHER 4-4-0 GENOA

[bevernie]

 ;DGREETINGS!! Someone please tell me the approximate age/make of a POCHER 4-4-0 GENOA engine and tender . This one, you know, has the engine in the tender, with a "driveshaft".
                                                                                                   THANX!!
                                                                                                   Ernie

[CNE Runner]

Hi Ernie. Pocher made engines and rolling stock for lots of companies. If I had to guess, I would say you have a Rivarossi branded locomotive. I'm not sure, but I doubt that Pocher made locomotives for Bachmann - although they also had "tender drive" (although the Bachmann old timers sure do resemble, in almost every detail, the Pocher products). Given the small size of a mid-19th century American locomotive, tender drive was all that was possible. I had an old Gem brass American 4-4-0 (Japanese) that also had tender drive...further proving the point.

These locomotives were made for years so determining the actual age of yours would be difficult. Both of my Rivarossi engines date from the early 1980s. BTW: while these are nice engines, they don't run worth a darn. The Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut R.R. has retired the old Americans and pulls revenue with two Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0s (we pretend they aren't models of early 20th century locomotives) - which are excellent runners.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific with your engine. My Pocher Americans are relegated to gracing display shelves in our den. They cannot be converted to DCC - and there isn't any room to install a sound decoder. This is really a shame as they are nice looking engines.

Regards,
Ray

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Sometimes with these models, you can get an approximate age by looking at some of the more subtle details.  I got my first Genoa when I was still a kid, back in the 1970s. I've had several over the years. With the Genoa, if the engine has a little wire thingie connecting the "whistle," on top of the dome nearest the cab, to a little nubbin-like thing on the cab roof, the model is "late," probably made in the 1990s.

Earlier versions of the Genoa did not have this feature, which I suppose is to represent the activator level for the whistle. I always thought that was kind of dumb, because the model of the Reno, the Genoa's sister engine, essentially the same locomotive with a different finish and different details (for example, the smokestack), always had this little lever.

I somewhat disagree with Ray's comments that these engines "don't run worth a darn." While I have had one Genoa that I would say didn't run worth a darn because she had only two speeds, fast and stop, late (ca. 1990s) versions of these models, which were packaged by Rivarossi in a red box, are beautiful runners. At least mine are.

In fact, I actually bought a slightly damaged but mechanically sound late-version Reno on eBay just so I could mount the superstructure of an IHC Central Pacific Jupiter--which didn't run at all, much less not worth a darn--on the Reno running gear. This worked, and I know have a beautifully running Jupiter.

[CNE Runner]

Wow Jeff...you have good eyesight! My Genoa doesn't have the little thingie on the whistle so it must be an earlier version. It's OK to disagree with me (I do it all the time) - and maybe I have published a false memory - as I haven't run anything, like a DC American, in years (N.D.& C. is totally DCC).

I do like the Pocher old time cars and try to buy one whenever they are available. The under car detail is great and the cars are quite nice (even nicer with new metal wheels, mag. couplers, painting/decorating/distressing/weathering). With the lack of new 19th century rolling stock (Roundhouse products are really early 20th century) we have to make due with older Pocher, Rivarossi, Bachmann and Mantua. Guys, I would "dance in the street" if Bachmann, or someone, would produce one of these old woodburners with DCC and sound. Honestly, I just don't think there is enough room for a decoder and speaker (given the fact that the electrical motor is in the tender)...although there are some very clever engineers out there. Say...with a little tweaking the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0s could be converted to woodburners (OK, they are a larger engine than most of the woodburners of the 1850s; but what the hey).

Ray

[Jim2903]

Don't know about sound, but there was an article in RMC recently about upgrades to an IHC 4-4-0 including a new motor (still in the tender) and DCC decoder. That, along with new pickups, made it a great runner, according to the author.

FWIW, I have an AHM Genoa from the late 1970s. It was my first steamer ... well, actually the second, if you count the Tyco 4-8-0 that had to be returned because its wheelbase was too long for train-set curves. The Genoa survived a couple of "runaways" off the end of my train table that messed up the cowcatcher.

[TwinZephyr]

Regarding the old-time Italian made Baldwin 4-4-0s, I think the Pocher name is generally associated with those models that had a metal frame.  These were made up until the early 1970's.  From a USA perspective, the 4-4-0s were "made by Rivarossi for AHM" after being retooled with an all-plastic frame and plastic domes.  A photo would be most helpful in determining the vintage of a particular model.

[bevernie]

 ;DGREETINGS!! I think the GENOA about which this discussion was begun has the metal frame. I know that it has a metal plate on the bottom with a space cut out through which the drive gear portrudes. I'm not sure about the "thingie", but it does have a small rod coming out of the center dome and going down just in front of the front drive wheel on each side.
      I do apologize that my camera is not working, so I can't provide the desired picture! Perhaps soon...!!
      BTW, THANK YOU ALL for your helpful comments and thoughts concerning this engine. If I ever get my track up and running, I'll find out if it does, but until then, at least it's a great piece to look at!!
                                                                                           THANX!!
                                                                                           Ernie

[TwinZephyr]

The Rivarossi 4-4-0s can be made to run very well.  They need a quality motor and the factory electrical pickups need to be properly maintained.  Additional pickups might help, but simply replacing the motor will make the greatest performance improvement.  I have an AHM-vintage 4-4-0 with a Sagami motor that runs like a Kato diesel.

When I said a metal vs plastic frame can help determine the vintage of a Pocher or Rivarossi 4-4-0, I was referring to the actual frame - not the cover plate which is metal on all models.

[bevernie]

  GREETINGS!! ???Now that you have clarified more your definition of a "metal frame", I'm not really sure that I have it! As I look behind the drive wheels, I see what looks like a metal frame. It seems to me that what is metal and what may be plastic look so much alike that it is difficult to determine without actually taking the thing apart , which I choose not to do at this time!
                                                                                             THANX!!
                                                                                             Ernie

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

;DGREETINGS!! I think the GENOA about which this discussion was begun has the metal frame. I know that it has a metal plate on the bottom with a space cut out through which the drive gear portrudes. I'm not sure about the "thingie", but it does have a small rod coming out of the center dome and going down just in front of the front drive wheel on each side.

Hi, Ernie,

Those "rod" things would represent the pipes that carried sand from the sand dome (the center dome) to the rail in front of the driving wheels for traction on slippery rail.

Jeff

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Wow Jeff...you have good eyesight! My Genoa doesn't have the little thingie on the whistle so it must be an earlier version. It's OK to disagree with me (I do it all the time) - and maybe I have published a false memory - as I haven't run anything, like a DC American, in years (N.D.& C. is totally DCC).

Nah, just long experience of these models, and close study of the changes over the years. I believe the engines even "grew," or got slightly larger, perhaps after Pocher stopped making them for Rivarossi for AHM. The construction changed, too. The earliest Genoa and Reno that I had back in the 1970s had the boiler and cab as "one piece." In the late versions, the smoke box, the cab, and the boiler above the running boards are separate from the boiler below the running boards (!).

I figured, too, that the engines released by IHC were probably being manufactured by the same people/plant that made the later AHM versions, and I gambled that the tooling was the same as for the Rivarossi engines. I was correct, which is why, I suppose, I could mount an IHC Jupiter superstructure on the running gear of a Rivarossi Reno.

I do like the Pocher old time cars and try to buy one whenever they are available. The under car detail is great and the cars are quite nice (even nicer with new metal wheels, mag. couplers, painting/decorating/distressing/weathering). With the lack of new 19th century rolling stock (Roundhouse products are really early 20th century) we have to make due with older Pocher, Rivarossi, Bachmann and Mantua.

One thing that bothered me about the early/19760s-1970s Pocher passenger cars is: no "smoke jacks" on the roof for any "car stoves." The later versions (including the full baggage car), which have "ducktail roofs," are very fine models of the Kimball cars built for the Virginia & Truckee in 1872, but they do look very early. Of course, the V&T ran those cars into the 1930s, until they were sold to the movies, but it would be nice to have some passenger rolling stock the length of those cars (work good on tight curves), with the detail of those cars, but with more of an 1890s styling.

Guys, I would "dance in the street" if Bachmann, or someone, would produce one of these old woodburners with DCC and sound. Honestly, I just don't think there is enough room for a decoder and speaker (given the fact that the electrical motor is in the tender)...although there are some very clever engineers out there. Say...with a little tweaking the Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0s could be converted to woodburners (OK, they are a larger engine than most of the woodburners of the 1850s; but what the hey).

Ray

Well, my Spectrum Richmond 4-4-0 came with a wood load for the tender, now all we need's the stack. ... 

[CNE Runner]

Say Jeff, check out the thread "Headlamp for 4-4-0" on which RichG posted (in the HO section of the forum). He took the Richmond 4-4-0 (definitely an early 20th century American BTW) and added an oil headlamp. This guy does amazing work and I only wish he would consider replacing my headlights (I have two Richmonds). Unfortunately the backdating doesn't end there as the Richmonds have a steam driven electrical generator ahead of the cab (which could be cut off, filled and repainted over). The stance of this engine is also considerably different than 19th century editions...but what are we to do? Changing the stack would be fairly easy - and you are correct in saying that you can use the wood load in the tender (wood wouldn't burn too well in a straight stack however). Ditto the smoke jacks on the Pocher passenger cars as they are readily available from several sources. When I remake a Pocher, Mantua or Bachmann car, I always remove that tree stump of a brake staff and replace it with a brass wire unit...the same could be done here.

The Bachmann old time gondola can be "remade" into a nice car by replacing the brake staff, replacing the trucks (or cutting off the couplers and replacing the plastic wheels with Kadee ribbed-back units), repainting and redecorating with dry transfers or decals. Additionally, judicious use of a file and Xacto knife can "distress" the "wooden" sideboards to show wear (remember in the 19th century these cars were loaded and unloaded by hand). Some weathering and magnetic couplers will result in a very nice looking car that closely approximates typical multi-purpose cars of the 1880s. Those of you with the desire, and steady hands, could replace the cast-on stirrups with brass wire. In other words, where there is a will - there is a way...to make a purse out of a sow's ear.

Ray

[richG]

Another issue I consider big is the air pump. I have many photos of late 1800s locos and the air pumps are on the right side, not the left side. I have never found any information or even speculation concerning the air pump locations for the TOC, i.e. moving to the left side. I am sure there are "opinons".
Even Roundhouse locos which I believe some say are 1885 locos have the pump on the left side. My opinion is, the Roundhouse locos are 1885 locos updated maybe around 1905. No doubt this will lead to more discussion.

I would not want to modify another Spectrum 4-4-0. The edges of the smoke box front are very fragile. Mine has a little damage at the bottom where I started to pry it loose. The damage is pretty much hidden. The front is a tight fit.

Rich

[CNE Runner]

Rich - I meant what I posted above: your headlamp replacement is outstanding. Just that one modification completely changed the "feel" of the engine...bravo! I wish I had half your skill.

Now on to the air pump location. I have a fairly extensive collection of mid to late 1800s reference material (photographs, books, manuals, etc); so it was interesting to put your theory to the test. If I restrict myself to the prototype Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut RR, as well as one of its predecessors the Dutchess & Columbia RR, I found the following:

Engine Name/#                      Manufacturer                  Erection Date              Location of pump

Washington......................Breese, Kneeland & Co............1856.................................right
ND&C #5..................................Brooks..............................1873.................................left
General Schultze...........................?............................purchased 1873.....................right
ND&C #6..................................Brooks..............................1873.................................right

Not to leave a stone unturned, I went to a definitive source A Locomotive Engineer's Album by George B. Abdill (1965) and randomly selected 10 American 4-4-0 pictures. The results were: 8 showed the air pump on the right (usually immediately ahead of the lead driver on that side), 1 could not be determined, and the remaining picture showed the pump on the left...but higher on the boiler. A check of my 1897 copy of The American Railway included a drawing that places the air pump on the right-hand side of the boiler - above the running board (Fig. 11, pg. 111).

It seems, therefore, that you are correct - or should I say correct most of the time. I would assume pump placement was the result of builder's choice, customer requirement, or later modification rather than any wholesale choice by the locomotive industry. So, if the air pump is on the side you are not happy with; tell your public that it was a road-specific modification...and refer to Yampa Bob's Three Rules for his model railroad.

Ray

[Yampa Bob]

Actually, I only have two written "rules".  The third rule is only evoked if people don't understand the first two. I'll leave it up to your imagination.