Bachmann E-Z Track Switches/Turnouts and Derailments

[BradKT]

Has anyone had a problem where either engines or cars (especially longer cars such as 50' boxcars) derail when they pass over a Bachmann E-Z Track switch/turnout?  What can be done about this?  I have this problem intermittently whenever a train crosses a #5 or #6 switch/turnout.  It only seems to happen with certain switches/turnouts.

I looked closely at the switch/turnout(s) in question and noticed that, as the cars cross the second rail of the track that turns out, there is a grooved plate (made of either plastic or soft metal) that appears to raise the wheels of the cars as they cross it.  Can or should that groove for the wheels be deepened or am I on the wrong track here? 

What I am talking about here is where the switch/turnout is closed so that the cars are going straight down the track.  It seems like the wheels  of some cars want to go with the turnout (as if the switch was open) instead and it makes the car derail.  This also happens with some the longer engines like the Athearn SD-45, especially if I am running a 2 engine train.

Your thoughts would be helpful.  This appears to be the only problem with my track layout.  Otherwise, the trains and cars run fine.

[Yampa Bob]

Hi Brad
Please visit this page for information regarding flangeways. There is a drawing at bottom of page showing the "no rail" drop zone in the flangeway. The wheel drops in the flangeway, then hits either the frog point or the closure rail, causing the "rise" you are seeing.

http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-1_Overview.html

Take a loose truck with metal wheels, push the truck back and forth through the flangeway with an index finger, with varied speeds and down pressure. You will feel the wheel drop and rebound, and hear a definite "bam bam". as the wheel tread hits the frog point or closure rail.

Possible solutions are, checking and adjusting car wheel gauge with the NMRA gauge, shimming guard or wing rails as needed to keep wheel flange from picking / climbing the frog point or closure rail, and assuring your cars are properly weighted.

Regards

[jestor]

As Bob said, one of the most essential tools a model railroader must have is the NMRA standards gauge for your scale. Recommend checking wheel gauge be part of your inspection process on new rolling stock. I have found most problems caused by out of gauge wheel sets. You will also find tolerance variations in turnouts made on a production line. But I always start with correctly gauged wheels. Then if there is a problem with a certain turnout, you have already ruled out wheel gauge. 

[BradKT]

The 33" metal wheel sets that I have been using are made by Model Power.  However, RTR cars made by Atlas with metal wheels were also derailing...especially cabooses....and it is right when they hit the frog.

The Athearn RTR freight cars with metal wheels didn't derail...except for a caboose or two.

I read the NMRA reference and was totally confused.  I just didn't understand the terms that they were using.

Thanks for your advice though.  I am not sure how I am going to deal with this.  Jestor's comment was very helpful when he noted that if it is a problem with a certain turnout and not all of them, then I have already ruled out the wheel gauge.  It's not all of the turnouts where this happens.  For someone who doesn't know exactly what he is doing, I am reasonably sure that it is not the wheel gauge.  The Model Power wheelsets seemed to be of very good quality.

If anyone else has any other thoughts...especially about shimming the frog and how best to do that, please offer your two cents...you comments and suggestions are most welcome.

[Yampa Bob]

On your cars that are prone to derail, try loosening the truck mounting screws about 1/4 turn.  A truck not only must swivel freely, it must also sway or rock a little.

Some recommend a "3 point" suspension, where one truck is a bit tighter and the other truck with more rock, but I have found a car performs better when both trucks have the same, but sufficient, rocking motion.

The flangeway of most model turnouts is too long, therefore wheel drop has to be considered as normal, if a truck screw is too tight the wheel will float above the flangeway rather than "ride through it".

If the screws are too loose, then the car will tend to "hunt", (weave sideways). I seldom have derails except on a new car that is not properly adjusted.

There is another test to make sure the trucks are not warped. Place a car on a mirror, make sure all wheels touch the glass with equal pressure. If you can easily slip a thin piece of paper between any wheel and the glass, the truck is warped and needs to be straightened or replaced.

Yes, the page I linked to can be confusing at first, but suggest reading it through several times and comparing the parts shown to an actual turnout. 

Keep us posted on progress

[Rangerover]

I totally agree with the above posters. If you still have a problem with derailment, what I found out is that not only Bachmann but even Atlas sometimes have a problem with the point on the movable rail, in layman's turns, see if the point is blunt or cut off, it should be to a sharp point and lay against the outside rail. This too will cause the wheel to lift. If it is blunt it needs to be filed to a point, carefully, on the outside of the movable rail until it just lays against the solid rail, be very careful not to bend the point, it is fragile. Use a jewelers file or and old auto point ignition file. Weight can also relieve the problem if the cars are to light, add some weight to them. I use the old shower basins and toilet lead bins that are lead and about 1/16 of an inch thick. some use pennies glued to the floor or bee bee's. Weight is important!

[Rangerover]

The Model Power wheelsets seemed to be of very good quality.

I am sure they are, but as other posters have said, wheel gauge is one of the most important even with expensive rolling stock. I bought a few cars in the $40.00 range and they were out of spec. If you have a micrometer caliper you can use that too. Just measure the distance between the inside of a wheel set that goes through the turnout with no problem and measure the inside of the one's that are giving you a problem. You can't beat the price of a track/wheel gauge and we all know that's most of the problem, after much head beating experience, it's one of those must have tools in model railroading.

[BradKT]

Where can I get a wheel gauge?

[Joe Satnik]

Dear Brad,

Google "nmra ho track wheel gauge".

If you have a local train shop or model railroad club, they might have one.

Here's an e-bay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NMRA-HO-SCALE-STANDARDS-GAUGE_W0QQitemZ370170014077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

[BradKT]

Thank you...and by the way, thank you Yampa Bob for your thoughts about making sure that the wheel trucks not only swivel freely, but that they must also allow the cars to rock a little bit.  I am going to check that as well before I do anything else.  Most of the cars that are encountering this problem are Roundhouse 50' or Athearn 50' boxcars kits that I assembled.  I only had this issue with 1 or 2 of the Athearn 50' RTR boxcars.  I hardly have this problem at all with the 40' boxcars, regardless of brand or whether they were RTR or kits.  No problems with either tank cars or flat cars.  It has happened with the 34' and 40' hoppers, but usually it is only 1 or 2 in the middle of maybe 5 or 6 cars being pulled.   Maybe I did tighten the screw a little too much on some of them, but every so often, I also have this problem with a couple of Athearn and Atlas engines (GP-38 or SD-45).  In the case of the engines that derail, it's usually the second engine in a train that is being drawn by two engines.

I also have a bag of 100 or so Atlas 33" metal wheels.  If the problems continue, I'll try those on the cars in question as well.

Regarding the weights, the weights that I am using are the standard Athearn weights that either come with the Athearn cars or fit the Roundhouse cars.  I also have strips of 1/4 oz. and 1/2 oz weights as well that I can stick to either end of the floors of the boxcars to increase the weight if that proves to be necessary. 

I am going to try all of the above before I try to start fooling around with the frog.  This doesn't happen on all of the turnouts...it only happens on 2 in particular (out of 5).  The cars do definitely rise as they pass over it, though.  I took a photo of a string of 34' hoppers as they passed over it and you can clearly see the tilt as they pass.

As usual, you guys make excellent suggestions that have solved several of my problems in the past, so I am hopeful that your suggestions about resolving this issue will prove to be equally fruitful.  I hope that this discussion thread will be of help to others.  Thanks again.

[grumpy]

I run all EZ track and the only problem I experienced was derailing through a turnout . The turnout was slightly warped making one track higher than the other at the frog resulting in derailment . The solution was to fasten the turnout firmly to the base. Problem solved , no more derailments.
Don

[Yampa Bob]

Brad
Here's an article that might be helpful.

http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=247

[BradKT]

Grumpy:

You left the following reply:  "I run all EZ track and the only problem I experienced was derailing through a turnout . The turnout was slightly warped making one track higher than the other at the frog resulting in derailment . The solution was to fasten the turnout firmly to the base. Problem solved , no more derailments.
Don"

Question: What did you find to be the best way to fasten a turnout to the base?

Yampa Bob:  That is an excellent article.  Thanks.

[grumpy]

Brad
I used nails long enough to go into the plywood base and hold down the turnout  flat.
Don

[Yampa Bob]

While I agree track and wheel gauge is important, the NMRA gauge is not the "fix-all" for derailment problems. I do not have the gauge, frankly I'm not fond of "go-nogo" gauges, prefer to use a precision digital caliper.

Here's the problem. A modeler checks a wheelset and finds it .002" too narrow. Of course the modeler doesn't realize the error is insignificant, only that the wheels must be pulled and twisted to get it "exactly right" according to the gauge.

In almost 3 years of modeling, I have never had to adjust the gauge of any wheelset or track section.  My trains run smooth, even through turnouts, and I seldom have a derail except on a new car that is not properly tuned and adjusted.

The NMRA tool is handy, but should be used with discretion and common sense. What I am alluding to is, don't be so preoccupied with gauge that you overlook other causes of derails, of which there are many.