peco turnouts

[ken black]

I am taking my atlas turnouts and replacing them with peco.the first ones were no problem  as they were insolfrogs.I then found the rest are electrofrogs. I can't get them to work.I am using DC common track can anyone tell me what I have to do so they will  work Thanks Ken

[Atlantic Central]

Ken,

Why are you doing this?  The Atlas turnouts are jumpered past the frog, similar to the peco insufrog. The electro frogs require gaps or insulators in the rails after the frogs.

Is you track code 100? Peco code 100 turnouts do not match the angle or curve of Atlas turnouts. Where you having a problem with the Atlas turnouts? Solving that problem may be easier than replacing them, and it may even be better.

Peco makes a very nice product, but it uses a different theory of track design from Atlas and requires different wiring. That is why you have a problem. Properly installed and wired, one is not better than the other. That is why I wonder why you are changing them.

I use all Atlas code 83 and love them. I would never pay the extra money for peco. I prefer the Atlas wiring design over the all metal frog that is part of the running rails on the electrofrog.

The Atlas turnouts have metal frogs, but the frogs are dead until you power them with extra contacts on your switch machines. I know you said you are in DC, so am I, but if you ever switch to DCC you will wish you never saw a Peco electrofrog.

Just my opinion, but peco trunouts, while very well made, are not operationally better than Atlas custom line turnouts.

Sheldon

[Nigel]

I am taking my atlas turnouts and replacing them with peco.the first ones were no problem  as they were insolfrogs.I then found the rest are electrofrogs. I can't get them to work.I am using DC common track can anyone tell me what I have to do so they will  work Thanks Ken

Hi Ken;

The information you need is here:
http://www.loystoys.com/peco/about-electrofrog.html

I for one disagree with Sheldon; base on my experience with COMRail (the model railroad club in Oklahoma City) (  http://www.comrail.net/ ).  COMRail found on thier modular layout that Peco turnouts were far superior to Atlas and Shinohara for reliable operation.

[Atlantic Central]

Nigel,

Great web referance, I was not about to try and explain all that to Ken.

As to pecos being more reliable than Atlas, I think that has to do more with installation than the product its self.

All the commercial turnouts on the market have stengths, weaknesses and just plain quirks.

And, I will admit, older Atlas turnouts did have som issues with the points that would give peco a slight edge. But Atlas custom line turnouts with the newer points, especially the code 83 line, work just fine.

Many people who started using peco years ago before these improvements in the Atlas product have not even looked at the new (last 10 years) Atlas turnouts to see the difference.

The reasons for my preferance are:

I don't like curved frog turnouts, like peco code 100 and code 75 are.
I don't care for the over center spring on the throw bar.
I don't care for power routing turnouts.

Several groups and individuals I know have recently built large layouts with Atlas custom line, both code 100 and code 83. None are having ANY problems at all. And their turnout expenses are half what they would have been with peco.

Many people I know with peco have had to shimm guard rails with styrene strips to get reliable operation, as the clearance is two wide.

As I said about DCC, everyone I know in DCC is having some level of problem with old fashioned power routing turnouts like electrofrogs. That is why Walthers (made by Shinohara) has revised their design to isolate frogs and points. A feature Atlas has had all along.

A great number of fellow modelers I know, and myself at one time, have or had layouts with hand layed track. Too many electrical problems, especially with DCC.

The peco turnouts are a good product, I never said otherwise, but I personally don't care for their list of features, and DCC and other new ideas about wiring make them questionable from an electrical standpoint.

A little more about Atlas, One weakness of the Atlas turnouts is that the frogs are often slightly above the running rails. This is however easily fixed with a few file strokes, which has the added benifit of removing the blackening from the running surface. I tap the wire lug and use a 2-56 screw to wire the frogs to contacts on the switch machines or to the slide switches I use as ground throws. 

Just A few thoughts to explain why I prefer Atlas over peco.

Sheldon

[Stephen D. Richards]

Sheldon, you mentioned there was a difference between the design characteristics of Peco and Atlas code 100 track.  What is the defference?  I intend to develope my large layout with Atlas code 83 because it seems to be the closest to prototypical.  I want as much information as I can get before spending all this money on it.  Stephen

[ken black]

Nigel Thanks For the great web site.The only thing I dont understnd is what to do with the power feed to the frog in doing the modifcation.Thanks Ken

[Stephen D. Richards]

Nigel, excellent site.  Thanks, answered some questions about the frogs.  Stephen

[Nigel]

Sheldon, you mentioned there was a difference between the design characteristics of Peco and Atlas code 100 track.  What is the defference?  I intend to develope my large layout with Atlas code 83 because it seems to be the closest to prototypical.  I want as much information as I can get before spending all this money on it.  Stephen

Hi Stephen;

Peco's code 100 and code 75 track follows UK practise, not North American (NA).  On the NA, frogs geometrically are two straights joined at an angle.  In the UK, there is a straight and a curve on a frog.

Peco's code 83 is as close to prototypical as you will find for NA, short of  ME or BK or CV.  Peco is better in this regard than Atlas.

Stephen, I would suggest you purchase one turnout each of Atlas, Peco, BK, CV,  ME,  and Shinohara (Walthers); then compare for yourself.  Your priorities are different from anyone else's.  You can use them all on your layout, and gather long term data.

Regarding the over center spring on the throw bar Peco uses, I see this as an advantage.  The vast majority of turnouts at COMRail are handthrown as you walk around with the train.  The Peco turnouts require just a quick flick with a finger, other brands require additional part, or something like the grossly oversized Caboose Industries ground throws.

The few powered turnouts COMRail has use Tortise, and the over center spring is removed.  One Tortise is used to throw all four points of the double crossover.

[Atlantic Central]

Stephen,

Nigel has explained this very well, so I won't repeat any of that stuff. And I agree the new peco code 83 turnouts are very nice from an appearance standpoint.

My biggest dislike of peco is electrical. Even for hand thrown turnouts I do not like relying on the points to be an electrical switch. But in code 100 I would not use them just on the issue of the curved frogs alone.

I use sub minature slide swithes for ground throws and use the contacts to power the frogs and turn on/off the track not in use.

Any turnout that energizes the open point rail with the same polarity as the closed one is an invitation to problems in my experiance, and I use DC, it is even worse with DCC. Walthers has redesigned their line for that reason.

And part of this is about cost. While the peco is a very nicely made product, the combination of its high cost and features I do not prefer, makes me choose otherwise. Why would you pay $20.00 for something that is not what you want, and has to be modified to get the features you need, when the product with the features you like is only $12.00?

One other thing I like about Atlas is the fact that they fit together without trimming or spacers to make crossovers and yard ladders on 2" track centers. I have also developed techniques for curving Atlas turnouts.

I would stay away from the Central Valley Kits. I built two of them and was very disapointed. I had no problem building them as I have hand layed track and turnouts for many years, but the points and throwbar system are very fragile and poorly designed in my opinion. But, they are VERY realisticly detailed.

Nigel is right, you should buy one of each that you think might be a good choice, play with them, learn about their operational and electrical differences and decide for your self.

Sheldon

[ebtbob]

Good Afternoon All,

       This is like listening to people trying to convince one another not to by a Chevy or a Ford.
       Look,  for years I used Atlas turnouts with great success.   Then one day I found out about Peco from one of the most successful modular groups in the Philadelphia area,  STARR.
       Since then I have changed form Atlas to Peco Insulfrog to Peco Electrofrog.  I changed to elctrofrog when I got into DCC because of the stalling many of my engines did on some of the insulfrogs.   Now,  with only my one three way,  and one double slip turnout left as insulfrogs,  all the rest of the turnouts on both my HO and On30 railroads are electrofrogs and things run just great,  thankyou very much.
       Anyone who has been here to my place and seen my railroads run can attest that I have few if any derailments.   When I do,  99.9999% of the time it is a car problem not the turnout.  Curved frogs or not,  if trackwork is done properly,  then things will run well.
       People,  use the type of turnout that works best for you.  For me,  it is Peco Electrofrog turnouts with DCC control.
       Remember one thing,   for you newer modelers,   any electrofrog turnout will require you to insulate/gap,  the two rails that join at the frog to prevent a short.

Bob
       

[Atlantic Central]

Stephen,

One other thought about appearance, once you paint the sides of the rail, weather the ties some, and ballast it correctly, all most all of the commercial track and turnouts out there today look pretty good.

So how much detail is enough? Again you need to decide and actually holding in you hand and understanding the workings of each is the best way to decide.

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

Bob,

It is interesting that you had stalling problems with peco insulfrogs with DCC. Most all the guys I know using DCC and Atlas custom line have not even bothered to wire their frogs and they have no stalling problems. I was amazed by that fact, but I have seen their layouts run and not seen a loco, steam or diesel, stall on a turnout yet, not even a dockside or a 44 toner.

Where everyone seems to be having trouble is with their hand layed trunouts and DCC.

Again, PECO turnouts are very nice and very high quality, but I just don't see twice the price for something I have to modifiy more to install the way I want it.

My objection to curved frogs is not operational, they work fine. I just like following North American prototype practice as much as possible.

I actually avoid slip switches like the plague. The real railroads in North America only used them in crowded terminals and junctions which had full time track crews on hand to keep them working. And, on model railroads they tend to confuse operators to no end.

Not trying to "sell" anybody on anything, just sharing my 40 years of model train experiances and maybe save someone some money if that more expensive product is not what they need. My first layout was TrueScale ready track with high speed turnouts, while not very prototypical, they worked great back then.

Sheldon

[r.cprmier]

All of this response is extremely informative.  I have both Atlas and peco on (my) layout-the exixting part-only because I am not about to change all of that yet.
I use Peco, especially where there is a need for a curved turnout, as they are the obvious choice.  Their intermediate radii can also come in handy as they can go between Atlas numbering.

On the new yard, I am using Jack Parker's turnout kits and roadbed, with code 83 (I'd have sworn he said his stuff was 81, but for .002, I don't care).

So far, I have had no relative problems concerning DCC wit hany turnout.  The tortoise machines work, the block lights work, the engines pull freight and passenger trains, and the green grass grows...
...That makes me a smiley face.

Rich 

[ebtbob]

Good Morning All,

     To Sheldon,  something I forgot to put in my email to you.......the only reason I have that one 3 way and one double slip is what those two turnouts give me from an operational perspective in a relatively small space.  The three way is in the throat to my mine and the double slip is one of two leads to an industrial shifting area.  Interestingly enough,  the Peco double slip is the only one that I ever owned,  where I have next to no derailments unless I forget to throw a set of points.  I had one by Model Power and one from Shinaharo which I never had much luck with.

Bob

[Atlantic Central]

Bob,

Yes, I know what you mean about saving space with them. And I would agree a PECO double slip is heads above those others. I avoid them mainly because operators never seem to understand them well.

Sheldon