Steam Road Numbers

[Yampa Bob]

Someone gave me the information earlier but I forgot to put in my log book. I'm sure Gene or others can refresh me on this. I don't recall if the information was posted here or came in a mail.   

Seems most steam locomotives have the number on the cab, and the name and logo on the tender.  One exception I noted is Santa Fe, which has a large number on the tender but only the name initals on the cab. 

Then some have the same number on both the loco and tender, for example Illinois Central.  Perhaps Lanny mentioned it at one time, but thought a post here might be interesting to others as well. 

Oh, would a loco and tender ever have different numbers?

I guess a yard manager knows the various numbering routines of different railroads for identification.  Any information helpful

Thanks
Bob

[rogertra]

"Oh, would a loco and tender ever have different numbers?"

No.  Not running numbers.  If the engine displays No. 1234, then the tender will dispay No. 1234.  All tenders carry the road number, with no exceptions.  Some in big bold numers on the side of the tender, some in bg bold numbers on the rear of the tender and some will small numbers on the rear of the tender but they all carried the road number.

However, some railways did number tenders in their own series.  This would be for accounting and maintenance records only.  The same as some railways had 'classes' of tenders, just like they did with locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars and cabooses.

[SteamGene]

It is no simple matter to separate loco and tender.  If you think unplugging the Bachmann electrical plugs is difficult, try separating a modern tender from a modern locomotive!  It had to be done once a year.  The only objection I have to Roger's statement is that I can see some freak accident where two locomotives wrecked and one damaged the loco and the other the tender, so it might be that loco A received tender B and they weren't repainted at once.  Also, most locomotives had between two and three tenders during its life time.
As a rule, after 1920 or so, railroads east of the Mississippi carried the road name on the tender on the side while some western roads - Santa Fe, IC, and several others carried the road number on the tender.  Prior to 1920 some eastern roads, C&O being an example, had the road number on the tender sides. 
Gene

[DRW807]

"All tenders carry the road number, with no exceptions.  Some in big bold numers on the side of the tender, some in bg bold numbers on the rear of the tender and some will small numbers on the rear of the tender but they all carried the road number."



Norfolk and Western did not have a locomotive road number on their tenders. They only carried the equipment number on the rear.

[TonyD]

Well, another take on this was, early engines with the square headlight with a kerosene lamp and polished reflector usually didn't have an illuminated numberboard, 'cause it was useless, just too dim. With acetylene it was sometimes visible to a station agent or interlocking tower as it rolled by in darkness. So, huge numbers on the side of the tender had a better chance of being read by the dim light of a kerosene lamp on a platform etc. As electricity became manditory on trains in US & Can. after WW1, numberboards were bright and clear, and as juice reached further into the wopwops, and onto the platforms, huge white and silver #'s on the tenders weren't necessary, but SF and a few others prefered to keep them, handy for workers at night or in the distance in a big yard with a 100 of these things stuck all over the place. And, about repairs, a tender is miserable thing, a plumber's putty squished between lines of 1 inch rivet holes, maybe thousand's of them, and the 'bad water', rust, vibration, hard hits when coupling - wooden flatcars were all that's under the early ones, lots of down time. Some roads just hand painted small numbers to match whichever engine it was hook to at the moment. On the back, again to save steps for hosler's and yard men. Like DRW just said, maybe just an inventory code #. Many UK lines and other countries had 'one size fits all', no numbers, no special functions, just grab a good one and let's get back on the board. As Gene stated, not an easy coupling, water hoses, brake and heat lines and more. Hours insted of minutes. But, whenever, however often as necessary, if the locomotive was roadworthy, hanging around a day for tender repairs was money down the tubes. Many people don't realize the selling point of diesels, the final $$$ nail in the coffin. One diesel, atleast one run, two jobs?, or more?, in 24 hours. Steam, for every two needed for traffic, atleast one in the shop getting ready to fill in. And maybe another one stone cold in the 'back shop' possibly ready later that week....or month. Hum.. Seems tenders are not a very romantic subject....      

[Woody Elmore]

The Southerm Railway put numbers on the tenders of freight engines. Somebody told me that the SRy engine number would be the train number. So if engine 3457 was leaving the yard with a train it would be train #3457. I have never seen or heard this from any other source and it seems like a strange way to do things..

Then there is the SP practice of posting the train number on numberboards at the front of the engine. This was different than the locomotive number.

All these railroads were private companies so there is no standard method used.

[Guilford Guy]

B&M used a simplified scheme on switchers of having the Road number on the tender, and no markings except for a small "B&M" beneath the cab window. This faded in the 20's when they began putting the Box Herald on the tender, and the road number on the loco's.

[Yampa Bob]

This is interesting. I thought each company had a certain scheme, but it seems to have no set rule, even within each railroad.  I bet it drove the yard manager nuts.

I suppose later radio communication made it easier, but I also assume there were some pretty large yards before radio. Then the engineer or someone had to "check in" with the yard office.  Do you think they ever "lost track" of a train?

Bob

[Guilford Guy]

Sure, read "A Subway Named Mobius."

[rogertra]

DRW807 wrote: -

"Norfolk and Western did not have a locomotive road number on their tenders. They only carried the equipment number on the rear."

Not saying you're wrong but I do find it hard to believe that the N&W did not put the engine number on the rear of the tender.  If the engine is in the roundhouse with the tender at the door, the usual way for engines to sit in the roundhouse, how could you read the engine number if it's not on the rear of the tender?  If the engine is running in reverse, how could operators know the engine number of the approaching locomotive for train orders?

Again, not saying you are not correct, I just find it hard to accept.

What do you mean by "equipment number"?

[RAM]

The ATSF had lovomotive number on tender and on number boards on the locomotive.  SPs GS
locomotive did not have locomotive numbers on tenders so they could switch tenders if one need
to work done on it and not keep the locomotive out of service.

[DRW807]

"What do you mean by "equipment number"?"

The tender number.

Check O. Winston Link's Book, The Last Steam Railroad in America, on page 25 and 36 for two quick examples. The pictures show the tender number and the tonnage.

Pg. 25 it's Number  90030   and  15tons.

Pg. 36 shows number 130030 and 15tons.

That is the only writing on the rear. The sides had Norfolk and Western on the tenders after about 1936 IIRC. Prior to that the N&W had the name in small letters on the cab under the window with the engine number over the name. There was nothing on the tender sides, as demonstrated on the current Life-Like heavy Mountain N&W model.

You can find pictures here also:

http://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/browse.php?folio_ID=/trans/nss


Be prepared to spend a lot of time on the Virginia Tech site.....

[Yampa Bob]

Now that makes sense.  They should all have large numbers somewhere on the loco, and the tender with just a roadname and or logo.

The reason I asked, I bought several USRA standard unlettered tenders, DCC ready.  I switched the circuits from 3 of my vandys over to the standard.   My connie locos are now numbered  611, 612, 613 and 618.  The 618 still has the vandy which is protypical for the Heber Valley Railroad which now owns the loco.

I plan to just put the UP shield on the locos as I only run modern excursions just like HVRR.  In other words,  YVRR owns all the locos, so I am not concerned about prototypes. 

I don't know if those numbers are consistent with UP loco/tender type. It was just the easiest way to change the numbers.  Also I can address my EZ command as 1,2,3 for the 3  connies.  The 618 remains in the box for backup. 

Bob

[TonyD]

Mr. Yampa, remember one thing about the www, garbage in, garbage out. Remember another thing about Confusius, a picture tells a thousand words... well, maybe it was chairman mao, I forgot, but I have more books and photograghs of railroads than I do websites by a long shot. Me & DRW gots books.. even if I 'am' illiterate, I like ta look at the pictures... I have seen several pictures of Rutland, NYC and others, with tenders that did not match the engine #. No big deal, it was a piece of the pie, a train had better not be identified by whay ever end is coming at you, but by the number on the engine- yes, Woody is right, SR and several -many- others, Virgina and Truckee come to mind, who used engine numbers as train numbers, many- if not all extra trains went by the engine #, like "DRGW X-144 to Durango", and the espee had individual slits on those # boards- so it was like a bus with the roller affair. Or the people at the gas station wearing out that pole...  As GG said, 'at one point in time' the B&M had big tender #'s, then logos, and like the New Haven in the first Morgan/ Mellon empire, nothing on the tenders .... 'blank tanks'. But there had to be #'s on the cab or dome, as well as up front. As for Rogertra's concern about 'a number', I would think a piece of chalk from the call board took care of that formality, but, by the book, the leading locomotive # was the one they had to go by. Seen a few snapshots of that chalk work too. Except for a 'dynamo' I would say the USRA lost all control of these inhouse issues, and it -was- extra worry for station agents and tower crews on a line with foreign power trackage rights, and lots of wrecks because of it. A Central Vermont/ B&M fatal cornfield meet in the early 70's was blamed on a misunderstanding of numbers. They were entering train numbers in a log book in a 'non agent' closed station.  B&M also had espee style number board slots... As for nowadays... when I 1st saw an 'NdeM' chugg past me, I figure all bets are off.... 

[TrampTrader]

Wow guys, there is a wonderful wealth of information on this site. There is so much for a newbie to learn about.



Pete