Is it reasonable to have to send an engine back twice?

[PatMatDec]

I have a brand new Spectrum DCC 2-8-0 that squeals like a pig, just like the one I returned. Is it unreasonable of me to expect the engine to operate out of the box? Both of them ran great for 5 minutes.

Is it expected that I should know how to fix this problem? I don't mind working on an old piece, but a new one?

I have been out of the hobby for a while and recently returned to it with my son. Should I spend my money on another brand?

Thanks

[ninnypooper]

Try oiling it first siderods gears everything. Make sure all the wheels are turning too.

[Yampa Bob]

It did run great out of the box, for 5 minutes.  That's hardly enough time to even break it in.  Ignore the noises and give it a really good workout, by itself and with a bunch of cars.  I expect my locos to work to their full capacity. Loading them down after breakin teaches that puppy I bought it to earn its keep, not just putter around the track.  I have a 30 day no hassle guarantee from my supplier, so in the first 20 days it has to pass muster.

If you look carefully at the bottom you will probably see a trace of oil. Most engines are over lubricated at the factory, and I have never had to lube until many hours of running.  In fact I run a new loco at top speed for a bit to throw out all the excess, then wipe it off.  Run it for at least 30 minutes at varying speeds, in both directions, the squeal may go away. 

Does it squeal all the time, or have a rhythm, or only on curves?  In forward or reverse?  Is it the loco or the tender squealing?  Does the squeal seem to come  from the inside, like a hollow noise or from the outside and if so which side in relation to the curve? Is it a metallic squeal or more of a plastic squeak?  Just to say it squeals doesn't give us much to start with.   

First you have to determine what is causing the squeal. Since the 8 wheels can't pivot when going around a curve, they have to shift sideways a little, more so on a tight radius than a longer one.   Turn the loco over and lay on a piece of soft foam.  Move each drive wheel side to side and listen or feel if there is any squeak or roughness.   Notice that the second and fourth wheelset is spring loaded verically to undulate over irregular track.  Push down on each wheel set and listen.  I have learned that the sense of feel is better than hearing.

Look at the wheels from the side to make sure all the crank pins are at the same degree.  I had one that got out of "quarter" due to a hard stop.  It doesn't matter on a model loco if the opposing wheels are not quartered at exactly 90 degrees, (right wheel crank pins lead the left wheel  pins),  but all the wheels on each side must be at the same degree or you will get some noise and the thing may waddle like a duck.  I call it "crabbing", don't know what others call it.  I fixed it by twisting the misaligned wheel a bit on the axle.

I had one loco that squeaked a bit around curves, the side rods were rubbing against the wheel due to the side to side shifting. 

If you must lube to stop a squeak, don't just oil everything at once.  Lube only one thing then try it.   If you don't follow proper troubleshooting procedures, you may fix the problem but never learn what was causing it. 

You will get many more suggestions, the above are just a few.  I'm far from expert on these things, but I did disassemble one that was squeaking and  found a burr on a  axle bearing (casting).   I polished all the bearings with 1 micron film and it is now very quiet. 

If you can't easily find the problem, and bought it at a LHS, ask them to check it out.  If from the net, keep returning until you get a good one.  My supplier will even send a prepaid UPS label.  Yes, I had to return one twice, to get a third one that was acceptable.

Don't give up, things like this can be frustrating, but learning to be a Mechanic first will really enhance your enjoyment as an Engineer.  Personally I wouldn't change brands but that is up to you.  I have 3 Bachmann Connies, and I wouldn't trade them for any other brand.

Bob

[James Hail]

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,4372.0.html

heres some lube info....connies screech whne the worm shaft bushings are dry and it will shred the brass into powder...

[Pacific Northern]

I have a brand new Spectrum DCC 2-8-0 that squeals like a pig, just like the one I returned. Is it unreasonable of me to expect the engine to operate out of the box? Both of them ran great for 5 minutes.

Is it expected that I should know how to fix this problem? I don't mind working on an old piece, but a new one?

I have been out of the hobby for a while and recently returned to it with my son. Should I spend my money on another brand?

Thanks

I also had to go through replacing a replacement engine as well. The engine was a Spectrum 2-10-0, a great running engine.

If it had not been for the quick response and apology I received from the service department I would likely have purchased my last Spectrum at that point in time.

Unfortunately it seems Quality Control is something that Bachmann needs to work on. Quite frankly if not for the price of the Spectrum engines I would have switched to another manufacturer by now.

I have since purchased another 6 or 7 Spectrum engines since.

If you follow this forum closely you will see that it appears there may be a problem with the current run of Spectrum 2-8-0's with bearing problems.

[Virginian]

At the risk of sounding like an old curmudgeon, is it reasonable to expect manufacturers to stay in business, with decent prices, when consumers buy very complicated little mechanical devices, and do not seem to be able to address any problems on their own?

[Pacific Northern]

At the risk of sounding like an old curmudgeon, is it reasonable to expect manufacturers to stay in business, with decent prices, when consumers buy very complicated little mechanical devices, and do not seem to be able to address any problems on their own?

I think it is unreasonable for those new in the hobby to be expected to trouble shoot and fix items marketed as ready to run, especially the Spectrum steam engines, too many things to go wrong should one attempt to take the units apart.

As I mentioned earlier I do think the spectrum units are essentially great little engines, they are not in the same league as the early BLI or are they as good as the current Proto Heritage units, then again they are not priced to be direct competitors either.............

Spectrum are quite acceptable for the price, but be forewarned there are quality issues, and note that Bachmann stands behind their products with their no questions asked warranties............

[Atlantic Central]

A few thoughts,

It does not seem unreasonable for the consumer to check basic things and make very minor ajustments. My reason for this thinking is not in defense of Bachmann's quality control - it is about the simple fact that owning and using this device long term will and does require some simple knowledge of how it works - As a culture we have become ridiculously spoiled in this regard.

We buy a car, drive 10,000 miles, run over a nail, and Ford sends someone out to change our tire - why?, Ford did not put the nail in the road, driving a car requires certain skills and responsiblities. So does owning and operating a model train. How may Bachmann driver wipers are miss-aligned by poor handling by the customer?

But, I will agree that I should not have to disassemble, re-engineer, or outright "repair" a brand new loco. Where is the line between "ajust" and "repair"? Well it might be slighly different for each of us but tightening a screw, ajusting a coupler, straightening a stray driver wiper (often a problem on Bachmann locos) seems like an ajustment to me - not a repair. Even though I CAN disassemble a loco, that is where I draw the line with a new piece, if it requires disassembly right out of the box, its going back.

As I have pointed out before, many more expensive products are no better. My two PCM Reading T-1's required grinding the tender frame to clear the drawbar when close coupled, additional weight in the smokebox to balance them for best tracking through turnouts and one arrived missing parts which took two requests to have replaced. So its not just about price.

I have 18 or 19 Spectrum steamers at last count, I have had to return a few - but none recently. I have never had the unfortunate experiance of have a replacement loco be bad as well. I hope this is not really the case. From my experiance, and what I seem to see reported by others, the quality control is much better now than it was a few years back.

I am always amazed by comments that infer that someone "only" buys this brand or that brand. The whole point of interchangeablity of these products it so that you don't have to buy just one brand - this is not Marklin.

I buy ANY brand of loco if all the conditions are right -

Is it a model I want for my layout?

Does that model run well and/or have good reputation? - regardless of other products that company may have produced that had problems - I would not buy a 1971 Pinto, but all the Fords I have owned in the last 20 years have been great.

Does it represent a reasonable value based on its features and available price?

So, my loco fleet consists of locos from Bachmann (Spectrum and Standard), Athearn (Genesis, RTR, and old blue box), Proto 2000/Heritage, Intermountain, Broadway Limited/PCM, Mantua, IHC, and Rivarossi.

And, there are other brands I find acceptable, they just don't have something I need/want or I just haven't bought them yet.

Mr. B, get this guy a loco that runs, I have 5 Spectrum Consolidations, they all run great - I know you can do it.

drhone - stop whinning - none of those other brands are perfect either - split Proto gears, noisy drivelines in many BLI/PCM models, the T-1 problems I noted - its not the problems, its what the company does about it. one friend of mine has tons of BLI/PCM stuff, he has sent back just as many of those as I have Bachmann.

We have a saying in the construction business - Show me someone who has never @#$%^up anything, and I'll show you someone who has never done anything.

Sheldon

[Pacific Northern]

A few thoughts,

It does not seem unreasonable for the consumer to check basic things and make very minor ajustments. My reason for this thinking is not in defense of Bachmann's quality control - it is about the simple fact that owning and using this device long term will and does require some simple knowledge of how it works - As a culture we have become ridiculously spoiled in this regard.

We buy a car, drive 10,000 miles, run over a nail, and Ford sends someone out to change our tire - why?, Ford did not put the nail in the road, driving a car requires certain skills and responsiblities. So does owning and operating a model train. How may Bachmann driver wipers are miss-aligned by poor handling by the customer?

But, I will agree that I should not have to disassemble, re-engineer, or outright "repair" a brand new loco. Where is the line between "ajust" and "repair"? Well it might be slighly different for each of us but tightening a screw, ajusting a coupler, straightening a stray driver wiper (often a problem on Bachmann locos) seems like an ajustment to me - not a repair. Even though I CAN disassemble a loco, that is where I draw the line with a new piece, if it requires disassembly right out of the box, its going back.

As I have pointed out before, many more expensive products are no better. My two PCM Reading T-1's required grinding the tender frame to clear the drawbar when close coupled, additional weight in the smokebox to balance them for best tracking through turnouts and one arrived missing parts which took two requests to have replaced. So its not just about price.

I have 18 or 19 Spectrum steamers at last count, I have had to return a few - but none recently. I have never had the unfortunate experiance of have a replacement loco be bad as well. I hope this is not really the case. From my experiance, and what I seem to see reported by others, the quality control is much better now than it was a few years back.

I am always amazed by comments that infer that someone "only" buys this brand or that brand. The whole point of interchangeablity of these products it so that you don't have to buy just one brand - this is not Marklin.

I buy ANY brand of loco if all the conditions are right -

Is it a model I want for my layout?

Does that model run well and/or have good reputation? - regardless of other products that company may have produced that had problems - I would not buy a 1971 Pinto, but all the Fords I have owned in the last 20 years have been great.

Does it represent a reasonable value based on its features and available price?

So, my loco fleet consists of locos from Bachmann (Spectrum and Standard), Athearn (Genesis, RTR, and old blue box), Proto 2000/Heritage, Intermountain, Broadway Limited/PCM, Mantua, IHC, and Rivarossi.

And, there are other brands I find acceptable, they just don't have something I need/want or I just haven't bought them yet.

Mr. B, get this guy a loco that runs, I have 5 Spectrum Consolidations, they all run great - I know you can do it.

drhone - stop whinning - none of those other brands are perfect either - split Proto gears, noisy drivelines in many BLI/PCM models, the T-1 problems I noted - its not the problems, its what the company does about it. one friend of mine has tons of BLI/PCM stuff, he has sent back just as many of those as I have Bachmann.

We have a saying in the construction business - Show me someone who has never @#$%^up anything, and I'll show you someone who has never done anything.

Sheldon

Sorry if it seemed like I was whining,

My point is simply you get for what you pay for. I do not think the price of Spectrum engines are unreasonable and given their warranty that is why I buy them. I have 25 at last count. With the exception of one Doodlebug they are all steam.  That is why I am a fan of the Spectrum engines, however I certainly have the right to voice my displeasure over incidents of quality control.

When I received by replacement engine and realized it was also defective I  thought at that moment I would never buy another Spectrum engine again. However, after contacting the Bachmann service Dept and receiving an e-mail from the Service Manager addressing the problem I remain a  Bachmann customer.  I certainly would think the replacement of a replacement unit would be a rarity.

I purchase other brands as well. Yes I have BLI, Genesis, Mantua, Proto Heritage, Stewart, Intermountain and other brands as well and have had the problems with the split gears so prevalent with the earlier Proto and of course the Genesis 2-8-2's.

[Atlantic Central]

drhone,

I agree completely. What made it sound like whinning to me was the inference that Broadway Limited, with their higher prices was somehow "perfect" in the quality control department. Something I knew first hand was not true. It sounded to me like you think Bachmann should raise the prices and make sure the duds don't get out the door.

In fact, nice as they are, Braodway's products leave much to be desired from where I sit. I only have three of their locos for that reason. They are generally not as well detailed in my opinion, it fact I won't buy their diesels for three reasons - price, lack of detail, and the "mu"ed design of some models (F3's, FA's).

As for steam they have only made a few locos I would want and have yet to make some of those in a configuration (DC and/or no sound) that I want.
I'm still waiting for unletterd light or heavy mikes in DC from BLI/PCM.

In my opinion, the extra price is not for quality, it is for sound and DCC which I don't want. And, like I said, two of the three I have had "issues", and my friend with 25 or so, both steam and diesel, has had to send back at least three or four, about the same as my Bachmann return ratio.

I can buy a Bachmann loco, even one with a decoder, get better detail and be able to remove the decoder and install the jumpers to get good performance on my DC system - not so with BLI/PCM. If it is not offered stealth, it runs like crap on DC.

Now, my three Proto Heritage steamers are all perfect. I only own three because of their limited selecton and my self limiting, non collecting, only choosing locos that fit my theme, approach to buying. I have 40 or so Proto diesels, all great except for the gear splitting thing, but free gears fixed that right up, both before and after the Walthers take over.

Sheldon

[Virginian]

I shall console myself by concentrating on the issue that I am doing my bit to hold costs down.  In over 30 years, I have never sent a locomotive back to anyone, for any reason.  Until people started talking about it a few years ago, it had never occurred to me.

[NevinW]

There must be something going with the most recent series of Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0's.  I have owned a 7-8 of these over the years and haven't had a problem with any of them.  A number of friends have whole fleets of these with no complaints.  They have been the most reliable of steam locomotives over the years.  What is going on with the current batch.  -  Nevin

[Pacific Northern]

There must be something going with the most recent series of Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0's.  I have owned a 7-8 of these over the years and haven't had a problem with any of them.  A number of friends have whole fleets of these with no complaints.  They have been the most reliable of steam locomotives over the years.  What is going on with the current batch.  -  Nevin

When I had my multiple problems with the Bachmann Spectrums it was only with the 2-10-0's.

I have multiple sets of the other Spectrum steam and have had no problems with the others.

Best runners for pulling and slow speed control are the 2-6-6-2's followed by the 2-8-0's with the 2-10-2's a close second.

[Atlantic Central]

drhone,

Do you have any of the Heavy Mountains? They too are very good pullers and great runners - as good or better than the 2-8-0 or the 2-6-6-2.

My intie Bachmann fleet is only made of four different locos - 4-6-0's, 2-8-0's, 2-6-6-2's and 4-8-2 heavies.

Sheldon

[Pacific Northern]

drhone,

Do you have any of the Heavy Mountains? They too are very good pullers and great runners - as good or better than the 2-8-0 or the 2-6-6-2.

My intie Bachmann fleet is only made of four different locos - 4-6-0's, 2-8-0's, 2-6-6-2's and 4-8-2 heavies.

Sheldon

Sheldon, yes I have and you are right there are as good, for what ever reason the 2-8-0's and the 2-6-6-2's are my favorites.

The only Spectrum engine I do not have is the Climax.  I was waiting to check the feedback on them and before I obtained any the Climax was no longer in production.

Never did get much in the way of  feedback on how they ran, another engine I am still debating/checking out is the new Standard line Berkshire.