DC or DCC?

[Yampa Bob]

This has been hashed ad nauseum, but wanted to throw in my nickel, should say a dollar with inflation.

When I first thought of model railroading a year ago, I had no concept of trains, full size or scale.  I live in the remote mountains and no one else here has trains. 

After a little research, I called Bachmann for a catalog, had it in 5 days and they paid the shipping.  After looking through the catalog I was hooked. "Our"  first train was a Roaring Ridge, my wife said it was neat and wanted it just to display on the mantle. But she did  put it all together and ran the thing before displaying, after all it's her train.  The 56 X 38 EZ track was a nice start for me as well. 

Some more research, and the Spectrum line seemed to be the best bang for the buck.  Never heard of DCC pertaining to locos, but am very familiar with digital packets, sattelites and GPS.  DCC equipped yet compatible with DC? That's for me. I asked my wife if she wanted me to DCC her loco, she told me to leave it alone.

So which do I prefer?  Don't really know yet and may never have a preference.  Sometimes my wife likes to run her train, so I plug in her DC pack.  I run double heads of DCC diesels on DC with no problem.  I have 2 EZ Commands, (one for a spare) sometimes it's fun to have several consists in the yard, run one awhile, park it, then run another, but that can be done with a few switches on DC, or to be able to double head with cab forward on the lead and reverse for the rear like they do here with the coal trains, but again I can put a tiny DIP switch in the cab to do that.   

I tried sound, didn't like it and sent it back.  Also bought an MRC  Advance Squared, didn't like the continuous throttle so back it went.  I'm not knocking the DCC turnouts but I don't need them, I can reach the Caboose Ind manual throws or add a couple of leads for a remote switch.  I admit to being intrigued at first, but decided against them.

I don't follow polls or ratios, or buy something simply because "Everyone has it" just to be popular or accepted.  You know, the "Big Kauhuna" (sp) says to eat kangaroo so everyone wants Rooburgers. 

I don't know the future of DCC, but DC will never be extinct, (as some have inferred) at least not in my lifetime.  Remember the "conversion" can be both ways.  I have a friend who buys DCC equipped, but rewires and sends me the circuit board.  I have several boards from my "Goat" projects.  My wife may someday change her mind about her loco. Having her for a railroading companion is my greatest pleasure so I keep it simple for her sake.

A magazine article said that one day you will be able to program an operation sequence, then sit back in the easy chair and watch a continuous computer controlled session.   I can believe that, lots of people have more dollars than sense.

Ok, your turn.  Except for the automated thing, tell me what can be done with DCC that can't be done with DC, and let's moderate that just for average layouts, average modelers with average needs.   Facts, not opinions.

When someone tells me their opinion, I just say ok, and go on.  Doesn't mean I agree with them, but so what.?  Webster has one definition of "opinion" that is often true "A belief held often without knowledge or proof"  I rarely offer opinions, unless someone asks me, and I qualify it by saying I have no documented proof.  In other words, I have absolutely no clue what I am talking about at the time, just trying to help or make suggestions.

I once held up a sheet of white paper and asked a guy what color it was.  He refused to answer, because we might be in agreement and  he could never tolerate that. 

Bob     

[TonyD]

I was visiting the Festiniog Railway in Wales many years ago. A volunteer explained manual blocks, -keyed- manual blocks, one key per section of track. It rides on a hook in one engine. No other trains can ever get on that section of main, till they either get that key in their posession, or it was left at the far end unlocking the main for a following train, who's still in the last block. That's how they kept things on the rails... I like that idea.. Old fasioned big layouts were like this. Block after block. Unless they are double headers, I, like the world's 1st two footer, don't like 2 engines on one-block/section- of track, I have 7 blocks on my 320 feet (not a misprint) of main- but that's on 3 levels, one double tracked, so 4 or 5 trains in motion at once is too much, 99 at once?? I know, triple headers, switchers cutting off cars from a stopped express, but I don't really see me doing that too often. I do like sound, and I get that from quantums, on DC, with my  panels full of double pull double thro antiques.... people modeling new stuff, mu's with ditch lights, strobes, dimming at a meet, guess they GOT to go dcc.....but at the last show I was at, the clubs with dcc spent as much time as I would trying to get things to roll ...... not too impressive....

[Yampa Bob]

Thanks Tony, that's the kind of response I like.  I get a bit rattled when someone says if you don't run DCC, you're a dummy, or if you do run it you're a snob, and it gets to be a big bruhaha.  My goodness, I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun, well it is for me, but some take it a higher level I guess.

I have enough trouble controlling one consist realistically, let alone multiples.  I don't go through elaborate switching operations, I have a fiddle track and decouple by hand mostly.  I do have a Pix Stik but can't see well enough to use it.  Actually the whole layout is a fiddle track as I have lots of re-railers for set outs.

Bob 

[James Hail]

DCC for me....

I like the lighting effects........selectable and adjustable.
Motor settings to tune the loco...selectable and adjustable.
Sound......selectable and adjustable.

And lack of wiring block systems into my layout.....and insulating rails ect.
Plus i love Soldering in decoders speakers and lights into a once lifeless chassis.

With low end intro dcc systems(no programming ect) you have not seen what you CAN do with Dcc....All the settings and tunning make the locos perform better ,add inertia...set start up volts and speed curves ect .

And to add just one light effect in DC it would cost $20-30 per circuit(retail) and do nothing else for the loco....as a decoder can.

If all you can do is drive the train (cheap dcc systems) then your not much better than dc conventional control if you ask me..And have not fully seen DCC in action.....Unless its a Fully operational DCC system..That lets you program..its a waste.....and handicapped.

I could have used blocks on my small RR but im glad i chose DCC.

As for operational problems......Move your RR to a mall ......set it back up and
you will have problems also......and have to fiddle and re-tune tracks ect.

Add 20 operators with different opinions and ideas and its going to cause problems.....DC or DCC.

Jim

[Atlantic Central]

Bob,

For whatever it is worth, I have been at this train thing a long time (1967) and have a pretty strong electrical background.

There are lots of different control systems even within the realm of DC before we even consider DCC. And the full automation computer based approach you mentioned can (and has) been done with or without DCC as the basis for actually controlling the locos.

I believe control systems should be tailored to the specific operational goals of the layout owner and to the size, style and concept of the particular layout.

DCC is great for some layouts/operators, but to assume it is "perfect" for everyone and everything is far from true.

One problem beginners face is that they may not know how they want to operate their layout because they have not learned much about that aspect of the hobby.

Another factor is cost/complexity. As layout size increases and desired operational flexibility increases, wiring infrastructure will increase regardless of the type of control. All the big layouts I have seen with DCC have just as much wiring under them as the most complex DC systems.

In general DCC assumes that you always want a very intimate experiance of "being the locomotive engineer" as oppossed to just observing the train, or trains as they run through the scene. This in my opinion is one of its limitations.

I personally do not care for sound in smaller scales like HO, so DCC is not needed to control that. I have a large fleet of locos too new to be shelf queens but that did not come DCC equiped. The cost of adding decoders alone would be a large investment. I do not use DCC.

To read more about how I control my layout with wireless radio throttles and how I am helping others do the same, see the thread in the "general discussion" about "radio control for HO". I will bump it to the top to make it easier to find.

Sheldon

[Yampa Bob]

Sheldon
You hit the nail on the head, I haven't been in model RR  long enough to know where I want to go with it.  That's why I'm just experimenting at this stage. 

My background (and age) are now my stumbling blocks. Around here people "know" me as a dumb retired cattle rancher who busted his butt for 20 years to build a nest egg. 

In earlier life I had an FCC technicians license with a degree in electronic engineering.   At one point, I designed circuitry to monitor optical coatings used by NASA.  Of course, my employer got the patent, I just got a healthy bonus and royalty.  That's when I decided to stop using my brain to make others richer, and moved to Colorado to test the waters.   

When renewable energy became  buzz words, I became a dealer and installed Solar/Wind power systems for remote homes.  All our wells are solar powered. I have suggested a solar powered garden layout with regulated 12VDC.  Batteries provide the power, panels merely charge the batteries.

More recently I got involved in GPS and radio packets to track teams in Search and Rescue,  teaching cartography and navigation to members. 

Today all the equipment I have is a Fluke DVM and clampon ammeter.  So what's my problem?  I'm tired of thinking, my brain is fried, and just want to have fun with my trains.  If I were 20 years younger (heard that before?) I would be inclined to build an elaborate block system such as yours, perhaps a second layout with all DCC, and compare the two systems. 

I don't intend to go wireless, but would like to learn more about block systems before I invest in higher end DCC.  Toward that end, schematics would be helpful.   

Bob

[ta152h0]

DCC and DC and Marklin AC for me.When my garage is cleaned up, all three will be running on the same geographical location. that means three power sources with its own unique characteristic. the common thread is HO scale, unless i decide to add Z scale and garden scale. I am going to die with a lot of toys.

[TonyD]

So, Yamba Bob is a retired mad scientist huh? If you get stumped on dcc...the rest of us don't have a hope.... As Shelton said, all the leads going to a buss, are...either divided into blocks, or all live at once for dcc. so a lead soldered to a rail joiner is a lead for either- right? I just figured, as I found out how big my layout was getting in an 11x19 chunck of cellar, as I was on the fence with dcc....hey, turn everything on at once hooked to a dpdt switch should go from dc to dcc...in an instant...shouldn't it? The power is different, but the metal is the same, who says you can't experiment with dcc on on block? Or the whole layout go from one to the other at yer lesuire? I know, power surges, the carma of code 100 flex track, I don't buy it. Why not both? either, with a dpdt? And as you expand from your loop, just wire each addition as an insulated block...which can be left live to keep a dcc an option..... my knowledge of ac or dc was which type of welding rod I was using...no help at all in this line of work....ups!..hobby....

[hotrainlover]

I have only receintly went to DCC.  I had a Digitrax system that was given to me last year.   The unit was bad and I did not like the results I was getting.  I went back to DC. 2 months ago I tried DCC again.  I now have the Bachmann Ez-dcc system.  I love it.  I have a 14 X 22 "L" shaped layout.  It has Folded 2 loops with a yard, engine area, and a wharf area.  I only have 4 engines that ARE DCC.  2 have sound.  I am going to convert all 33 engines to DCC, with dual mode decoders.  I have a friend that is a DCC Wizard and charges only $10.00 to convert engines to be DCC ready.  I can do this at my leisure and still can run all of the ones I want.  I just have to move them on and off of the "dead" tracks!  Yes I like pushing 1 button, and then working another train!!

[SteamGene]

I went to DCC for two reasons.  The first is I like the sound.  Now, being retired artillery, back when an XO on the firing line wearing ear plugs would loose all respect at once, my hearing isn't real sharp.  So itx works for me.  The second is that it does simplify wiring.  My layout has a total of four power districts: 
Staging, East Penninsula, West Penninsula,and Leesboro/South River Yard.  HOWEVER, the engine storage tracks inStaging and probably the yard tracks and the round house will all have a on/off switch so that when I turn on power I don't get thirty DCC, most with sound, coming alive at the same time.  So that adds a bit of difficulty to wiring. 
My layout is large enough to warrant considering DCC.  I think that putting DCC on a 4x8 is a waste of money.  Even I was able to block a 4x8 with no problem. 
I think considerations are:
size
number of proposed operators/number of trains
desired extras.  For instance, steam did not run with headlights on in the daylight until late in their lifetime.  Some kid today told me my J-2s headlight was burned out.  No.  It was turned off because it was daytime and she was on the point of the C&O George Washington, still all Pullman Green.  You can't do that with DC. 
Gene

[Yampa Bob]

As I mentioned, I have a lot of fun with DCC on my small layout.  Is there a specific size where DCC begins to have an advantage?

One reason I wanted to try DCC is because I wasn't satisfied with the throttle control of my Magnum.  I like things to happen when I turn the dial a few degress from off.  Nothing moves until I reach about the 9 O'clock position.  It's like having too much free play in the clutch of my pickup. I  prefer more sensitive controls, a holdover from RC.

The EZ works exactly the same.  I can't adjust CVs yet, I have read that the startup threshold can be lowered.  Switch selected sensitivity seems a better option (dual rates)  than fiddling with CVs. Both the Magnum and EZ have excellent snail speeds. 

Pondering DCC is like standing at the edge of the pool, can't learn to swim till you dive in.  The EZ at least got my feet wet, but I'm still leary of deeper waters.

A hidden DIP in the tender can turn the lights off and on.

Tony:  My experience means I can probably plug it into the wall, maybe.  Ask me DCC questions and you get a dumb look.  An analog brain in a digital world.

Bob

[geoff]

It all depends on what you are trying to do. If all you want to do is build a small layout or a layout where you want to watch a couple of trains run while you or a friend does some switching than DC is fine. However, if you want more complicated multi user operation you should consider DCC. I have been in this hobby for a long time and have wired a large DC block type layout for running multiple trains and it is a pain compared to DCC and even then you can't approach the flexability of DCC.

From a realism standpoint there is a very fundamental difference between the two. In DC you operate the track in DCC you actually operate the trains! Again it all depends on what you want to do. The more complex your operations are going to be the more you should lean towards DCC.

With DCC you can run multi head trains with different locomotive because you can "Speed Match" totally different locomotives to run together. You can run a helper service. You can run 20 trains on the same track at differant speeds in different directions. You can adjust start, mid and max voltage on each locomotive. You can change the acceleration curve, momentum and so many other things, just too many to mention here. There are also some sound functions you can't get with DC. You can also run DCC and use non of these features.

I am building a large 17ft x 34ft HO layout with an NCE Power Pro DCC System. I will be having operating sessions with 5 to 8 people running the railroad. I could not imagine doing this with DC. On the other hand there will also be a logging shortline operation and a mine railroad as seperate one person operations. They will most likely be DC because I see no operational benifit to spending money for decoders for these locomotives  that will never be required to travel on the main line. Of coarse there will be safety features to prevent a locomotive from crossing between DCC and DC track.

Like the gentleman who has 150 DC locomotives there is no way I would switch to DCC. However, if you are just starting out, don't have much equipment and have decided that model railroading is for you, I would go DCC!

[TonyD]

I think Geoff explained the difference in a nut shell! Like the Festinog- and me, dc operates the track. Dcc operates the trains. I still wish someone would let us know if a small layout could go from one to the other with a double pull....i'm gettin' itchy to find out the hard way.... you ain't the only mad scienist Bob!! You sell solar panels??? I'll have to put on my snow shoes and help you with this layout......

[Yampa Bob]

I'm getting some great advice, making notes along the way. I appreciate everyone's courteous candor.

At this point I'm glad I can't adjust CVs.

Here's the scenario:  Guy gets a brand new DCC loco, starts it up and it has a little surge at slow speeds, maybe some roughness at mid throttle, a few groans or growls, so he immediately starts messing with the CVs or takes it completly apart  before even breaking the thing in.

The longer I run my locos, the quieter they become.  So far the only benefit I've gleaned is the ability to adjust startup voltage with DCC, and run multiple locos. I think the maximum I could handle on my layout is maybe 2 at the most, and then only when I have 2 separate loops to run on. Of course I do like the "park one run another" benefit.   I have 8 active  locos, (4 in the "shed") would be nice to have them all available without having to isolate sidings and using switches.   

The next question is a bit "off the wall", but I'm curious.

What about the voltage and amperage characteristics of DCC?  With DC, it's a walk in the park, but measuring Digital requires a scope.  It's not AC but rather a "clock signal" square wave.  So I'm only concerned about such practical things as smoothness,  linearity,  and  I suppose overall efficiency.  I've read the features, but like to know the benefits toward realistic railroading.

So far I can't see any difference in these aspects, between DC and DCC.  Overall, I'm probably giving a very tiny edge toward the DCC. (almost a photo finish at the line) I'm referring to the EZ I have, I don't foresee any windfall in the near future to justify upgrading to a higher end unit. 

Perhaps when (I should say "if") my wife ever lets me DCC her Roaring Ridge, I might store the Magnum. I keep suggesting, she just says leave it alone.   

Bob

[SteamGene]

Bob,
How large is the layout you are planning?  If it's any size at all, you don't need a double track mainline to run two trains.  All you need is one or more passing sidings for meets.  I have a single track mainline, but can see four trains at one time, plus switching in the yard and in one or two towns. 
Gene