Non DCC N & W J-Class Locomotive

[noblepa]

I just acquired this locomotive. It is in beautiful shape. Unfortunately, it doesn't run.

I was able to get it apart and remove the motor. See the attached pictures.

Before I removed the motor from the frame, there was electrical contiunuity between the drivers on the right and left side of the locomotive. After I removed the motor, there was none.

In the photo of the motor itself, you can see the two electrical contacts near the motor shaft. There are wires leading down to the corners at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock. When I applied 12 volts to these contacts, the motor spins freely and at what seems to be a normal speed.

What I can't figure out is the proper electrical path from the rails to the motor.

The frame appears to be two halves that are electrically isolated from each other. It appears that the 12v comes fromt the driver on one side, up the frame on that side, through the motor, down the frame on the other side to the driver on that side.

Looking down into the motor mount location (last picture), I can't see how the current gets from one side to the other. Both contacts on the motor are on right side of the engine, meaning that they appear to both contact that half of the frame. That's what has me confused.

Does anyone here have any experience with this locomotive?

The Bachmann website has exploded diagrams of the current DDC equipped or DCC ready versions of this loco, but that setup is considerably different. It has a more conventional worm gear on a can motor that mates to a gear on one of the second driver axle. In this setup, the motor shaft runs parallel to the rails.

Mine has a small motor with a shaft the is perpendicular to the rails. There is no worm gear, just a small gear that mates to a large gear on the rear driver axle. Its actually a neat arrangement. There is no discrete wiring in the conventional sense. Everthing is done by the electrically isolated frame halves.

Any ideas?

I have not tried putting it all back together, so maybe the gears were just jammed and I fixed the problem by removing the motor and that just reassembling it will solve the problem.

ThanksYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.   

[trainman203]

Man, this is way more work than I ever want to get into.🫣🫨😱😮

I've never seen one, but I'll bet this is the dreaded pancake motor that everyone in this forum who has ever encountered one dreads.  I'll leave it at that, I've never seen anyone care for this motor, but I'll let someone else with experience elucidate.

This appears to be a very early version of the Norfolk and Western J, and that's why the on-line exploded diagram doesn't accurately show your engine, it's for a later run.

Of course it's all up to you, but if any of this is the case, I'd be inclined to install a better motor in that engine.  You've disassembled everything and gotten involved with it so much I would believe that you have the aptitude and energy to pursue that path.

[noblepa]

Thanks, Trainman203.

When I bought it on eBay, the seller made it clear that it didn't run. I exected to see a burned out motor or stripped gears. Not so. The motor runs freely when it is out of the loco. The gears look to be in good shape. There is no apparent damage to the mechanism that would cause the gears to be misaligned.

I have thought about trying to upgrade to a newer can motor. When I look at the mechanism, it looks like a pretty major job to me. There is no worm gear, and no immediate access to the drivers to install one. I suppose that I could open up the hole where the motor now meshes with the spur gear on the driver and figure out a way to install a can motor with a worm gear. I notice that the newer models have the worm drive on the second axle. This one is on the fourth axle.

I don't think that there is room to mount a new motor transversly, the way the current motor is. If I could do that, I might be able to use the current spur gear on the fourth axle.

On the other hand, this loco is large enough that, if I can figure out how to get a worm drive in there, there should be room for a fairly large can motor. Maybe even a flywheel.

As I said, all the components look to be in good shape. The motor runs, the wheels do not bind. Maybe it was just that the drive gears somehow get  jammed and, when I disassembled it, everything popped back into place, erasing any evidence of the original problem.

One thing I learned when working on cars and computers is "always try the easy stuff first", even if you are absolutely, positively sure that it can't be the cause of your problem. You'd be surprised how often that impossible fix actually works. I think I'm going to make sure everything is clean and lubricated, and reassemble it. It just might work.

Thanks again.

[jward]

As Trainman has guessed, this is the dreaded pancake motor. I'll return to that.

Looking at the mechanism, it appears there are no worm gears in it. Therefore, you should be able to push this one down the track with the motor out. My friend and I did a rebuild of a Tyco Pacific a few years back, and we were able to roll it by hand. If it doesn't roll, look for something binding. It could be in the rods, or in the gears. whatever it is, find and correct it. Once you get the mechanism rolling the motor should be able to power it.

Now let me return to that pancake motor. In my opinion it is underpowered for the job. If you can get it to work, fine. Biut even if you do don't expect too much from it. Note that it is mostly plastic, including the bearings. If it overheats enough, those plastic bearings can melt and seize the motor up. I've seen it happen which is one reason I don't like them. If it seizes up, it's done. You can't fix it.

You asked about remotoring. It should be possible as long as the motor will fit under the boiler. many steam locomotives use a can motor with a worm on the end of the motor shaft. That worm should mesh with that giant gear in the chassis. The Tyco steamer I mentioned before came with an open frame motor in that configuration, and we replaced it with a new can motor from Northwest Shortline. You need something like this: https://nwsl.com/collections/repower-kits/products/repower-kit-tyco-mantua-2-8-2-or-4-6-2   I'd contact them directly and see if they can give any advice.