Observations from a Newby

[RedMt Dave]

I am in the process of setting up and testing my trains on my layout which consists of all Bachmann EZ track. I have two large oval loops that are interconnected via an LCO #6 DCC and an RCO #6 DCC on the straight runs. The outer loop has 22"/22.5 deg curves and the inner loop has 18"/30 deg curves.
For my passenger train I purchased three passenger cars (85' Budd) from another manufacturer. I added weights to the passenger cars to bring them within the specs of proper weight for their length. They are being pulled by a Bachmann Amtrak Cascades #1400 locomotive.
Here are my observations:
Whichever passenger car is last, it will derail usually going through one of the crossovers. I have looked over the crossovers and cannot see any major issues. I've watched a few videos on YouTube concerning the issues with weak spring steel.
My freight cars run fine over the crossovers.
If I run the passenger cars on the outer loop with the 22"/22.5 deg curves, I will get an occasional derailment. If I run them on the inner loop with the 18"/30 degree curves, I have no problems with the passenger cars.
None of my shorter freight cars have any problems on either loop.
So, what am I doing wrong?
Will a more expensive passenger car perform better?
Should I consider replacing the spring steel in my expensive crossovers?
Thank you all for your insight and experience.

[Tenwheeler01]

Cross overs create "S" curves.   Generally "S" curves are avoided. But if you have to have an "S" curve the distances of the straight track between the curves needs to a length to handle the longest car you plain to operate.

Also make sure that the crossover curve direction is not creating a double "S" curve.  So when a train is coming out of the crossover the curve of the crossover switch is curving the same direction of the curve the train is going into.

A few things to check.

Check the Passenger car wheels to make sure they are in gauge.

Make sure the passenger car trucks are free rolling and free moving "not binding" and have some vertical play in them.  If you have a truck that is not moving freely back and forth that car will derail quit often.

Try rearranging the car order and see if the derail follows the car. (I usually find that the issue is one of passenger car trucks is binding).

next slowly roll each passenger car over the crossover and see if any of the wheels climb the frog or switch points.  The detail could be starting at the crossover and jumping off the track until you go into the curve. You can also test this by removing the crossover and see if the passenger train makes it around the outer loop. 



 
   

[bbmiroku]

Since you say it doesn't matter which car is last, I assume you've also tried them all backward and come into the same problem.

In real life, freight wheels and passenger wheels are usually different sizes, and when you scale it down, the difference is negligible IMO. But some manufacturers still make wheels in multiple sizes. You may have a mixed batch of wheels.

If your wheels are all out of gauge (too wide), they may pick the points on your turnouts, and the added weight of a car being pulled behind them might help keep the first two in line and bop the car back down onto the tracks. Since the last car has no extra pull on the coupler, there's no bop and off it goes. You might want to try putting a little extra weight over the last bogie truck and see if that's the problem, then choose a car and make that your designated last car. Or buy a matching Observation Car if available and weight the rear.

I would also check the rail connections really well. If the rail didn't seat into the connector right and is sitting on top of it, it will always pick up those passenger cars and cause trouble right before the special track.

The last thing you should check is your crossover, since most of your other cars don't have a problem.

[jward]

Cross overs create "S" curves.   Generally "S" curves are avoided. But if you have to have an "S" curve the distances of the straight track between the curves needs to a length to handle the longest car you plain to operate.

Also make sure that the crossover curve direction is not creating a double "S" curve.  So when a train is coming out of the crossover the curve of the crossover switch is curving the same direction of the curve the train is going into.

While I am usually the first oen to hammer home the point about S curves, I doubt that is the problem here. The S curve problem is directly related to the radius of the curve, and the length of the equipment operated. Thus, if the OP had used the standard switches with the 18" radius curve, the S curve problem would be severe. In this case, though, he is using the #6 crossovers, with an effective radius of over 60". With curves that wide the S curve problem essentially goes away. As an example, on my own layout I have an 18" radius curve that goes directly into a hand built wye switch patterned after the one Atlas makes. It was designed to be used with an Atlas #6 switch, so the effective radius is the same. I have NO problems with cars up to about 55 feet derailing on this S curve due to the wider radius. In my yard I also have an S curve of 24" radius and also have no problems. Cars longer than 55 feet have problems on the 18" radius curves, so the problem of longer cars is moot. But suffice it to say that full length passenger cars shouldn't derail on a #6 crossover because of the S curve. SOmething else is going on here.

[Tenwheeler01]

(85' Budd) from another manufacturer

There is one brand that gives me all kinds of issues.  I wonder if they are the same ones I have issue with.  I have 6 of these and I have check the wheel gauge, wheel drag and truck freedom. All good. One car just loved to derail.  I swapped one of the truck with another car and this help some. They are still not reliable and these are new modern models.  I just put them back into there boxes until I get to build a larger layout with much wider curves. 

Jward, Yes I agree it is more then likely not an S-curve issue.  But it is something to check with 85' cars.

If you can find a copy of "Track Planning for Realistic Operation"  Page 80 covers S-curve problem alignments.   It is best practice to have one car length between curves.   I also have an S-curves into 2 tracks of my yard. The fist one on has about 2" of straight track between the number 4 turnouts . Must of my passenger car have issues with these S-curves. Cars up to 50' have no issues.  I also have an S-curve on the main lines when going though the crossover. the crossover is #6 turnouts but I have one 85' car length between the crossover and the curve turning the other direction form the crossover so no issue with 85' cars.   I also have a crossover in the yard for a run around that uses #4 turnouts.  85' cars going though this crossover is hit or miss per manufacture.       

[RedMt Dave]

Yesterday I went over every section of track and I found a couple of misaligned rail connections. I also repositioned one of my crossovers so that there are 2-9" straight sections before it and 2-9" straight sections after it. I checked the wheels on the passenger cars and set them so that the heaviest car is last. And guess what? No more derailments. I ran the train for at least 1/2 hour at different speeds and it worked perfectly. Thank you all for your suggestions. I have copied them into a Word document and printed it to keep with my layout.

One more question if you don't mind. Do any of you set your tracks with glue or caulking? I've seen a few YouTube videos where the person sets their tracks with caulk after final layout and testing.

[jward]

One more question if you don't mind. Do any of you set your tracks with glue or caulking? I've seen a few YouTube videos where the person sets their tracks with caulk after final layout and testing.

Yes and no. I do glue my track but it may not be applicable to you or most of the people on here. My track is laid by hand, and the initial process is to lay the wood ties on the subroadbed after painting it with white glue. After this dries, I ballast the track before I add the rails. The rails are spiked down isung small spikes, and the glue and ballast helps keep the ties from splitting.


When I did use regular track of the traditional plywood base, I predrilled holes in the plywood, then used track nails coated in white glue to secure the track. I have never used the glue itself to secure the track itself to the subroadbed. I have found that track often needs minor adjustments to get things to run smoothly, and gluing down the track interferes with that process.