How much smoke fluid?

[Chez]

Hi,

  The Baldwin Loco Works -USRA 0-6-0 W/Smoke & Slope Tender-DCC(HO) was purchased as a Christmas gift for our son. We're very new to the hobby and are learning as we go. My question is how much smoke fluid should be put in the very first time? I put 3 drops in, turned the smoke unit on in the cab and ran the engine for a bit but no smoke. We put a few more drops in (3/4) and ran it again for a while but still no smoke. Am I not putting enough in or is it too much or is the smoke unit not working? So far this is the only piece of DCC equipment we have.

Thanks!
Chez

[trainman203]

The experienced modelers here will tell you not to use the smoke unit for several reasons. First of all, you can't scale the physics of smoke down from full scale to HO scale. It will always be wispy and look like a cigarette is up inside the locomotive... instead of a real locomotive chuffing hard to pull a train. The second reason is that the smoke from these units is very oily, and after a little time will start settling on everything in the room, in an oily film that's difficult to clean.

Of course, that doesn't help you if your son really wants to see the smoke. I'll have to defer to those having experience with these units to help you there. But, be advised of the two issues above.

[Chez]

Thanks for the reply! My son does want the smoke and also since it's new, we would like it to work properly regardless of if we use it or not.

[jward]

TO be honest smoke and DCC is asking for trouble. That oily smoke residue is attracted to the cool metal and electrical field of your rails, and tends to deposit there. DCC is much more finicky than traditional DC when it comes to electrical contact, and requires clean track to operate properly. WHy shoot yourself in the foot by running smoke AND DCC?

[Chez]

jward, I understand that. Either way, with the engine being new, I would like it to work properly. Seeing the engine smoke would make my son happy. Judging by what I'm hearing, we would probably only use it on rare occasions. If we are going to use it, I would like to know I'm putting the right amount in initially. Is 3 to much, not enough, just right? I don't know.

[trainman203]

I tried asking Mr. Google your question about how much smoke fluid to use, and the answers very widely, so it's not much help. May be a call to the Bachmann Service department would be helpful. They've been pretty helpful to me about other issues in the past.

And there's always the possibility that your smoke unit is defective. If you bought that engine new, and that's the case, they will exchange it for you for one that works. Good luck to you on this. I remember being a kid 150 years ago with a Lionel steam locomotive with smoke and how cool it was.

[Len]

One of the problems with smoke units in DCC locos is the voltage/current disparity. Generally speaking, smoke units need more voltage/current to operate than a decoder can provide, so they are wired directly to the track pickups. Only with DCC it's not getting a nice flat DC voltage. The DCC signal is a bunch of square waves that tell the decoder what to do. And if there are a lot of spaces between the pulses, the smoke unit isn't going to get enough voltage/current to operate properly, even with the throttle maxed out.

It's easy enough to see if that's the problem if you have a straight DC power pack handy. If the smoke unit already has too much fluid, it may start spitting out instead of smoking, so drain any excess first. If it's empty, add 3 or 4 drops of fluid. Unhook the DCC system and connect the DC power source to the track. Turn the throttle up until the loco is moving at a reasonable speed and give the smoke unit a minute or so to heat up. Then you should start seeing some whispy looking smoke that's not going to be anywhere near as heavy as the old Lionel or American Flyer smoke units. If the smoke doesn't start after 2 or 3 minutes, you probably have a devective smoke unit.

Len

[Chez]

I tried asking Mr. Google your question about how much smoke fluid to use, and the answers very widely, so it's not much help. May be a call to the Bachmann Service department would be helpful. They've been pretty helpful to me about other issues in the past.

And there's always the possibility that your smoke unit is defective. If you bought that engine new, and that's the case, they will exchange it for you for one that works. Good luck to you on this. I remember being a kid 150 years ago with a Lionel steam locomotive with smoke and how cool it was.

trainman203, I also searched Google and came up with the same results. It actually lead me another question, are all smoke oil reservoirs the same size or are there difference according to engine size?(strictly speaking Bachmann engines here).

One of the problems with smoke units in DCC locos is the voltage/current disparity. Generally speaking, smoke units need more voltage/current to operate than a decoder can provide, so they are wired directly to the track pickups. Only with DCC it's not getting a nice flat DC voltage. The DCC signal is a bunch of square waves that tell the decoder what to do. And if there are a lot of spaces between the pulses, the smoke unit isn't going to get enough voltage/current to operate properly, even with the throttle maxed out.

It's easy enough to see if that's the problem if you have a straight DC power pack handy. If the smoke unit already has too much fluid, it may start spitting out instead of smoking, so drain any excess first. If it's empty, add 3 or 4 drops of fluid. Unhook the DCC system and connect the DC power source to the track. Turn the throttle up until the loco is moving at a reasonable speed and give the smoke unit a minute or so to heat up. Then you should start seeing some whispy looking smoke that's not going to be anywhere near as heavy as the old Lionel or American Flyer smoke units. If the smoke doesn't start after 2 or 3 minutes, you probably have a devective smoke unit.

Len

Len,As of right now, the engine is the only DCC piece of equipment we have. We ran it on a DC oval track with a DC power pack that my son got with another train set two years ago. We did take the engine to a local hobby shop where they have a DCC layout. The guy ran the engine on the layout but no smoke. He had two of the same exact engines in his shop, one DCC one not. He ran his DCC engine and no smoke, he then ran the non dcc and it started smoking almost immediately. He said the smoke unit is probably bad. As far as how many drops, he said 3 should be fine. I did try draining the engine too. Left it upside down for 24 hours but didn't get anything out of it.

[Len]

This is the smoke unit used in the 0-6-0 locomotives:

https://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_212&products_id=1706

Note the wires wrapped around the 'ears' at the top of the unit. They should be in contact with the loco frame on each side of the smoke unit. Also check the wires connecting to the top and bottom of the heating element to make sure they are not broken.

Len

[Chez]

Thanks Len! Since I'm new to all of this, I'm definitely not taking the engine apart myself. It's still under the Bachmann warranty so I sent it in for repair. Two questions for you.. Speaking strictly Bachmann engines, are all smoke unit reservoirs the same size regardless of engine size? And how much smoke fluid would you put in the very first time if you have/had the engine I have?

[Len]

The 2951 smoke unit in my earlier post description says, "HO (Universal) Bevel bottom For ALL 0-6-0, 2-6-2, 2-6-0 locomotives. Also used in 2-8-2 & 2-8-0 locomotives (produced prior to 2004).".

There is also a 2911 smoke unit whose descriptions says, "(HO/Large scale Universal) Flat Top used for HO 2-10-4, Overland, Niagara and Class J (produced prior to 2004). Also can be used for Large Scale 4-4-0, 2-6-0, 2-8-0, Climax [New], 0-4-0 Gas Mechanical."
https://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_91&products_id=1705

Both are roughly the same size, they just have slightly different top and bottom shapes.

The instructions for most HO smoke units say to uses 2 or 3 drops the first time, 3 or 4 after that. I can't say for sure, because I normally remove the smoke unit on HO "smoking" locomotives and use the space to install a small DCC controller.

The only HO locomotives I leave the smoke unit in are some old American Flyer locos with a mechanical piston type smoke unit. They actually produces puffs of smoke and a "chuffing" sound that's a bit more realistic than the 'pot' type smoke units usually found in todays HO locos.

Len

[Chez]

Thank you for all the information, Len!! It's a big help!! The engine we got didn't come with any instructions, just a parts diagram. In the bottom corner of the diagram, was an area that simply said add smoke fluid to the stack. There was no specific amount mentioned other than "a few drops". I did a Google search and the amounts varied tremendously. I also did a search for any sort of instructions for the engine but didn't find any.

We're waiting on getting the engine back from Bachman and hopefully it will work properly!

Thank you again!

[wfletcher]

I have several Bachmann smokers.  They all eventually broke.  Put new smoke units in them and they died as well.  Bachmann recommends 5-6 drops only in their units.
And heed the warnings; they are real.

[Tenwheeler01]

You said this was a DCC equipped loco. I wonder if the smoke unit is ran off a function like other models. I know the the Sound-Value locos have the smoke unit on F6. All the locos I own with smoke units have then set to a DCC function.
  Also are you running it on DC or DCC.  On DC you may have to run a bit faster to get the voltage up.  DCC is constant voltage.
  I have several loco with fan driven smoke units. Each manufacture has different units with different number of drops. I have the smoke units set to off on startup (so I do not run one dry on accident). So to turn it on I have to press a function button.

Thank you.
TenWheeler01