Converting DC engines to DCC

[Ralph S]

A question from another post came to me and I wanted to respond to it, but in that post the answer would not pertain to the original topic.  So I added this topic to respond (hope that doesn't upset anyone).

(Taken from:  Re: DCC walk around companion controller « Reply #15 on: June 27, 2021, 04:14:58 PM)

Ralph, I am a bit confused as to why you think the Smart Interface would preclude you buying new DCC locomotives, or why you seem to think your DC locomotives can't be converted to DCC. I am thinking you don't have a full understanding of what DCC is. First of all, converting most DCC locomotives to DCC is as simple as adding a decoder. On older locomotives you may have to modify the wiring in such a way that the chassis is not used as a ground, like in a blue box Athearn. The motor must be isolated from the chassis, once this is done it is a simple matter of hardwiring a decoder in locomotives that do not already have a DCC socket. For somebody who has expressed a desire to reverse engineer as much stuff as you have on this board, that should be second nature. As for specific recommendations for decoder installation, many decoder manufacturers offer tutorials on installing decoders into specific locomotives. My experience has been that while these tutorials are gears toward that company's products, decoders are standardized enough, especially the ones you hardwire, that you can install anybody's equivalent decoder using the tutorials. Good decoders can be found online for $20-25, economy ones for around $15.

It should be noted that while the Smart Interface would be a big improvement to the utility of EZ Command, It wouldn't add to the inherent weaknesses of the system, namely the limited slots available for locomotive addresses, the limited current capacity of the system, and the inability to do any decoder programming other than an address change. As I read the documentation, it would, however, allow the use of multiple cell phones as additional controllers. In theory, it would allow the use of up to 9 cell phones as controllers, each one controlling a different address. But by that time, you would have inevitably exceeded the current rating of the EZ Command, especially if you are running sound equipped locomotives.

Before I answer the queries, I would like to ask, about those DC and/or DCC compatible engines that can operate in either mode.  I'll be posting a question in this regards, unless someone else has already posted that question.  So... in response to the quote above,

Actually, I haven't given it a thought, that is, converting the 4 DC engines over to DCC.  One of the main reasons is probably due to the fact that over the course of my experience, I have not been successful taking stuff in a small box and remove stuff/equipment/components from one size box and redesign it to continue to fit in that same box.   Our lustrous automotive engineers have the same problem.  They change the components within the engine compartment.  (When I was a kid, my dad had me inside the fender and beside the engine replacing parts). Nowadays that same car engine has so many parts, you now have to take other parts out in order to get to/find the part you want to replace, let alone the fact that a small kid can't even sit inside the engine compartment of a car today.  (Sorry, did it again, got off the subject.)
So in short, adding a DCC decoder to the DC engine electrically is easy, but getting those additional parts back into the engine (i.e., engine case and chassis) would be my Achilles heel.

As for the smart interface, it might seem simple today (for others), but I guess I'm still after that pass that so enthralled me when I was a kid.  That simple throttle, that simple reverse button, not having to look at the controls, but have eyes on the engine and cars, and not the controller.  The new controllers one has to look at the controller to make sure you have pressed the correct button for the train one was supposed to be operating.
I haven't ventured into the sound equipment yet.  But I don't see EZ Command being outrated (current capacity) due to my complicated track design (see Post:  Re: 2 EZ Commands?  Reply #18 on: May 27, 2021, 08:30:05 PM)

I'm kinda like Bachmann, I want to keep controls simple,  cause I want the simple to operate the complicated and complicated parts I like designing for, and believe me, it won't fit in the box .

[jward]

Before I start, let me ask which DC locomotives you have? I've already converted alot of mine to DCC over the years, and can definitely offer guidance on diesels. Steam I don't have as much experience with.

From my experience, it is possible to use a Z scale decoder in an HO locomotive if space it at a premium. The ones I use are rated at 1 amp same as an HO decoder. Those will actually fit in a Bachmann 0-6-0 if you remove the smoke unit. The space where that sits has more than enough room for the decoder. That is by far the tightest conversion I have done. most other locomotives will have alot more room to work with.

The basic hard wired DCC installation for those locomotives without a DCC plug, is relatively straightforward. You have two wires from the decoder to the wheel pickups (red & black) two more to the motor leads (orange & grey) with the remaining three wires controlling the headlights. In some of the Bachmann locomotives I have done, they do not use the standard wire colour coding as used on the decoder leads. You can use a multimeter to confirm which of these leads connects to what.

A little care in wiring, and stopping to make sure the connections are to the right circuit after each connection is made, will ensure that you don't inadvertently miswire something and short out the decoder before you ever apply power to the locomotive. Then it's time to do the basic programming (address and speed characteristics) but that's another subject.

BTW, it is a misconception that EZ Command is the only DCC system that uses the intuitive control arrangement found on the DC power packs. While many systems use a thumb wheel or buttons to control speed, the system I use is based on a Kato DC power pack, and uses the same knobs for speed and direction. It is more complex in what it can do, yet just as simple to run as an EZ Command.

[Desert Rose]

We converted 25 Bachmann GP40's and 20 Bachmann SD40-2 from DC to DCC installing NCE BACH-DSL Decoders, works really good only lit one on fire. As far as the E-Z Command go's we use it. It is really simple to use, we are currently running 21 amps to the track using E-Z Command Dynamis DCC system.





















 

[jward]

Did I read that right? 21amps? How many boosters are you using? My system is 3 amps and I've never needed more.

[Desert Rose]

We run one 5 amp booster per 50 feet of track. We run DD40AX in consist of four pulling 60 89ft cars, one consist per main two total running at step 28 at the same time.  

[jward]

By my calculations, your current draw should be 4 amps or less, and that's assuming all those big jacks have dual motors.

[Desert Rose]

That's true, however the four big jacks are four feet long pulling 60 feet of cars running up to 30 pounds going through two to three 35.5 supper elevated curves maintaining 101 smph for 1975 fast fright. with one booster it slows down when it hits the curves and the old man gets cranky, so you add boosters until you have a constraint speed all the way thru the run. Its called derating, with aircraft engines we install a 10000 lbs thrust engine and derate it to 8000 lbs. This means the plane can go up to 30 thousand feet and maintain 8000 lbs. with out fading. It is the same fore the big jacks at full throttle you never run out of power. we are all about speed whatever it takes to keep the throttles pegged.   

[Terry Toenges]

Desert Rose - Do you have any videos? I'd love to see your set up.

[Ralph S]

Cool, ...

"a misconception that EZ Command is the only DCC system that uses the intuitive control arrangement found on the DC power packs"

, but I don't have any knowledge of the Kato DCC controller.  I'll have to do some research on that one.   The four that I am familiar with is digitrax's Zephyr, Bachmann's Dynamis, MRC 2000 or Prodigy,  and NCE's  5240046 Twin Entry Level Dual Controller.  Of course there are the European versions of DCC, like Marklin and ESU 50210 Ecos 2.1 Central, but the European versions bring up a whole set of different problems.
My question is, does it use a digital screen on the controller for engine identification? 

As for my very old engines, One is a steam engine, but I have it in my train museum on my layout. The other three are vintage 70s, they run but need tender loving care.  At this stage in my creation, I believe it isn't worth reconfiguring them, probably cheaper just to buy new and move those old three to the museum also.
As for me, taking these old engines, more than 40 years old, trying to upgrade them without replacing all the gearing, motor etc, I'd expect that I'd be like Desert Rose and watch it lite on fire. 

That brings me to that new topic on those DC/DCC dual operating engines.  From what I have read thus far, these can do both, run on DC and DCC without all the separation or engine humm, and overheating issues.   Is Bachmann going to build these type engines in their line of products?  Or are the other engine manufacturers to do that? Or is this somebody's fantasy/dream of a new engine? Just so you know I made a new topic asking that question since I didn't find any on the message board that directly asked that question. 

[jward]

Kato doesn't make a DCC controller. Theirs is DC. The Zephyr uses the same knobs as Kato, but on a DCC controller.

You still haven't mentioned what older engines you do have. ALl we know is they are 70s vintage and one is steam. Further elaboration as to who made them, and what model they were is a must. Some locomotives of that vintage are worth converting, some are not. Those not worth converting would also be poor candidates for remotoring and regearing as well.

As a general rule, if a diesel locomotive has only one truck powered, or if the motor is mounted directly to the truck itself I won't try to convert it to DCC. If the motor drives both trucks via drive shafts and worms, I'll give DCC conversion a shot.

[Ralph S]

Well, My DC engines are:
Engine one (the work horse of the bunch) is a Yugoslavia as stated on the bottom.  A GE very short engine (only four wheels).   It can pull six cars without help.

Engine two (its okay) is a Tyco or Model Power (no manufacturer name anywhere). An EMD something (has eight wheels) not sure if they are independent or shaft driven..

Engine three (its okay too) is an unknown (no manufacturer name anywhere).  A GP7, I think.  I want to replace it, cause I think it's on its last days.  It also has eight wheels but I believe it only drives the front four wheels..

Engine four is the steam engine, also unknown manufacturer no name anywhere.  It has three steam domes, if that helps.

Like I said earlier, I can use them in my museum on my layout.  I'm not about speed in my soon to be expanded yard.  I have an isolated track section where I can use DCC to enter, then back out, then DC engine can enter and back out.  That's how I  bring in and move out the cars.

Lastly, they would be great old engines, but the cost of new DCC engines and the expectation that these old ones don't have other issues like, worn gears, aging motor, and all that other stuff you mentioned is pushing me toward just getting new and moving entirely to DCC. Then I can take the DC powered yard and move it to a second DCC controller. 

[jward]

It sounds like none of them are good candidates for DCC conversion. The Yugoslavia marking is Mehano, which was imported by AHM. Many of their locomotives featured an oversized motor geared directly to the wheels with no reduction. Very poor speed control.

The Tyco locomotives feature self contained power trucks that snap into the body shell. Most likely only one power truck, with motor mounted directly to the truck, though certain models had two power trucks. Tycos were probably the smoothest running of all the 1970s train set locomotives, and performance can be improved by replacing the motor magnets with slot car magnets. But in the end, you will still have a locomotive that can only pick up power from 4 wheels.

The third one sounds like a GP18, which looks very similar to a GP7. Once again, only 4 wheel drive, probably only 4 wheel pickup. Athearn made a decent running GP7 in the 1970s, with all wheel drive that would be a better candidate for DCC than this one. If you have what I think you have, it was another Mehano product, which was imported by AHM, Bachmann and possibly others.

From the description of the steam locomotive, it is impossible to figure out what you have. A wheel arrangement would help greatly in this regard (0-6-0, 4-6-2, 2-8-2, etc)

One thing to remember is that DCC is much more finicky about electrical pickup than DC. As a result, pickup on all wheels is highly desirable. Unfortunately, most low end locomotives from that era used cheap motors mounted on only one truck, with rubber traction tires used in attempt to compensate for the loss of pulling power compared to better made diesels with all wheel drive and pickup. Personally, I wouldn't bother to convert a diesel with traction tires. Even if it runs halfway decent on DC, it will probably be a dog on DCC.  Your idea of a museum display sounds like the best place for them. Another possible use is to model a storage line of surplus locomotives in your yard, or to fill up tracks in a roundhouse.