What is the Consensus on the Steam Record?

[gwfan]

Stewart,
A picture of the driver and fireman appears on this site: http://www.lner.info/locos/A/a4.shtml

A Pennsy E6 was supposed to have clocked 127 mph in 1927. However no speedo. was fitted and speed was taken from waypoints.

A Borsig DRG clocked 124.5 in Germany in 1936 but I have no details of whether this was a proper timed trial.

I have been told (by a Frenchman  ) that certain Chapelon (sp) locos were able to exceed 125 mph but were not fitted with speedo's so nobody ever checked !! Sounds unlikely bearing in mind the French passion for record keeping with the TGV's

Chris

[Atlantic Central]

OK Roger,

We get it, it does not count unless 27 bureaucrats from the home office ministry of weights and measures certified the dynamometer car 30 seconds before the record was set and 27 more certified the record as it happened.

But again, to get from Washington to New York in 3 hours, on wheels of any kind, even today, you have to be going pretty fast at least some of the time.

Sheldon

[rogertra]

There is only ONE speed record for steam, and that's held by "Mallard".  Period.

Everything else is just a p****** contest.

[David(UK)]

Is this American jealousy coming to the fore, because they don't like being beaten?
Now if you had asked which was the fastest train in service, then you'd probably win hands down.
But, as already stated - Mallard's record was an official attempt and properly audited. No-one has beaten that record under the same circumstances.
By the way the world land speed record is only over a mile and that only lasts a few seconds as well - so you going to poo-poo them as well?

[Atlantic Central]

And I conceded the fact that none of the US claims where official or well documented in my very first post. I just offered some other thoughts which seemed to be what Stewart was asking.

Roger on the other hand wants to rub it in everyones face, repeating the same thing over and over.

And I guess he is offened because I am not suitibly impressed with a machine that sets a record but then breaks down and needs a tow home.

But am more impressed with machines that perform exceptionally day in and day out in regular service, even if they don't hold any records.

There is really only one way to settle this. We find a couple of billionares to build exact copies of the Mallard and an E6, lay 20 miles of straight level double track, and let the race begin. And if we make it two out of three, I know the E6 will win.

Yes Roger the Mallard holds the record, my only point was that given the opportunity, the E6 and maybe a few others would have given her a run for her money. They may or may not have beat that record. No one will ever know.

There is plenty of evidence to suguest that E6's regularly hit speeds over 110, whether or not they ever reached 126, nobody knows for sure, for all the reasons Roger has stated, over, and over, and over.


Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

David,

I'm not poo-pooing anything. I am however much more impressed and much more interested in a NASCAR race than the time trials at Bonnieville, both American events so we can put to bed this jealousy idea.

The time trails are what they are, the rules are what they are, just like the Mallards record. It is what it is.

But winning the Daytona 500 is a test of endurance and performance.

Another example if I may. I have no interest in American Football, 16 regular season games is not enough to determine the best team.

But in Baseball or Hockey, where they play 150+ games a season, you need to be good consistantly, not just on a couple of afternoons, to win the title.

Much more impressive in my opinion.

Sheldon

[Seasaltchap]

Sheldon : I think F1 Champion Nigel Mansell demonstrated the differences in finesse winning the Indy 500 in his first outing.

This is how the lack of finesse is played here in Phoenix. Rugby, the game of gentleman, is played around Phoenix with universities also putting up several teams. The ref's often have UK experience of the game. The complaint is that teams come from their dispirate locations with agro' against the opponent, play the game, and then retire to their dispirate locations with their agro'. This is not THE GAME.

A well known local Rugby club has been banned from their base by the psudo British landlord of an English Pub per se. Who ever heard of such behaviour in the UK!

[Ralph-On30]

I found this,

The PRR #7002 E-3 Atlantic, with 80" drivers, reached a sustained speed of 129 MPH, while making up time with the Broadway Limited.

I know,

How can this be verified.

[gwfan]

Stewart,

And now you know not to ask such questions. I agree that unless you can prove it - it is not worth a candle. However, getting into conversations about US v. UK railways is utterly pointless because the factors that built them and the way they turned out were quite diffrent.

The A4's were built for a specific job and for a very different railway with low loading guage, tight radii and multiple junctions. To compare and argue is pointless. Don't let us stoop to childish arguments and pit the English speaking peoples against each other when everybody knows that the most magnificent railway today is the French TGV.

AND of course Rugby is a better game.


Chris

[David(UK)]

Just to reiterate - Mallard limped back to Doncaster under her own steam.
She didn't break down - the inboard Cylinder ran hot during the record attempt.
Ran light means she went all by herself with no other stock in tow.

[Atlantic Central]

Chris,

I agree completely about the differences in the design and use of various railway systems. That is a point lost to many from outside the the US.

In fact, there are dramatic differences between the railroads in different parts of the US, and therefore in the locomotives they need/use. This was particularly true in the steam era as I have pointed out in a number of other threads such as those claiming the Big boy as the most powerfull loco.

As for the French TGV, I don't know much about it, but, if not for the Americans and British, it would be the German TGV.

If I want a fine piece of furniture, I call and Englishman
If I want a fine meal, I go see an Italian
If I want a fast, fancy car, I call a German

But I want my pickup truck to start and run everyday for 150,000 miles  and carry 4x8 lumber with the tail gate up, so it is American, and so is the pistol in the glove box.

Yes, I am one of those brutish Americans with big gas guzzling cars and a big house full of guns. I like NASCAR, not golf, and counrty music, not opera.

I believe you are only entitled to what you earn or produce and what you can protect. I believe the great wars from the Amercian War for Independence to WWII where fought not to make all men equal, but to protect the equal right to prove I am the better man.

Sheldon

[Seasaltchap]

Thank you all.

I raised the issue because it is always a good line for discussion.

I think we have all learnt a lot from one another.

Don't mess with Shelton when he's on the road!

[gwfan]

Sheldon

I respect Stewarts wishes to close this thread but this is too much fun and anyway this thread is about speed! ! The French speed record for the TGV stands at 320 mph (that is NOT kph). I don't believe the German comes close - top speed of ICE is 145mph? Please correct me  Oh yes and I do know that TGV runs on special track etc etc....

Chris

[Atlantic Central]

Chris,

I can't and won't try to correct you, I know nothing about the TGV, nor do I really care to know. How old are you, my reference to the Germans was that there would not be a France today without the Americans and Brits in WWII.

No offense to those from other countries, but my interest in railroading is in my country and my culture. And even that is too much to learn or know all about.

Sheldon Stroh

[Atlantic Central]

Chris,

One more note so a whole other group can feel snubed, if it happened after about 1955 in the railroad business, I am not really interested in modeling it. And I stopped keeping up with new stuff in the prototype about 1975. Again, there is only so much time and so much to know, you have to choose what you want to be versed in.

Sheldon