What is the Consensus on the Steam Record?

[Seasaltchap]

There are several claims to the record speed for a Steam Train; from 124 to about 130 mph.

LNER A4 Pacific "Mallard" in 1938 is generally quoted at 126mph because it had a dynomometer car in the rake to officiate, although it was on a slight decline of 1/200. The engine was just 3 month's into service and an inside main bearing was damaged in the attempt. It had to be towed back to Doncaster for repairs. The driver has remained nameless - pity the fireman !

What is the authority for the other claims?

Regards

[gwfan]

Stewart,

I believe the driver was a Mr. J. Duddington and the fireman was Mr. T. Bray. (First names were not in use then!) . The speed record was NOT accepted by Gresley although LNER stated that it was 125mph. Westinghouse engineers on board said it was 126.

Chris

[David(UK)]

These two links should help;
http://www.wandleys.demon.co.uk/mallard.htm
http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/mallard.htm
By the way, Mallard ran light back to Donnie, she wasn't towed!

[Seasaltchap]

Thank you David & Chris.

The crew were nameless for a number of years, when did they come to public knowledge?

Mallard was down a 1/200 and may be qualified because of other attempts made on the level.

There are several US claims and a German claim to the record. I had hoped to hear what the consensus was among contributors to this site..

Regards

[Bill Baker]

Great topic....keep it going.

[Atlantic Central]

There are a number of North American locos that where known to be capable of those speeds or even significantly greater speeds. But seems that in a vast country of many different independent railroads, no offical railroad racetracks for such tests, and no "record police", many people both in North America and elsewhere seem to easily dismiss any claim that an American loco went ever went faster than the Mallard.

Based on what I know about US railroad practices, I suspect that "record" was broken quite freqently on railroads like the PRR or the SP any time an Engineer with an E6 and six cars or a GS4 on the Daylight was behind schedule and wanted to make up the time. But there were not a bunch of "officals" around to note the fact, so it's just hearsay.

The engineering says that either of the two locos mentioned above, and a number of others, could have easily went that fast, at least for a short distance, given adequate track conditions.

But the railroads all had safety rules and these guys wanted to keep their jobs. So it is unlikely they would tell many people they hit 140 mph on their run today.

I know this next example is not steam, but in the 1970's, when the first Metroliners replaced standard cars pulled by GG1's on the Northeast Corridor, winter ice and snow would disable the Metroliners and replacement GG1's with six cars would beat the Metroliner schedule with no problem. New is not always better, or faster.

Sheldon

[Atlantic Central]

One more thought,

The Lindberg Special averaged almost 85 mph for 224 miles with two stops, dozens of juctions that would have had less than ideal track conditions for high speeds, curves, grades, etc.

No one knows, except a few people long gone now, how fast that E6 went in the straight ways, but just based on similar proportions with auto travel of road speed to average trip speed, would sugest they maintained speeds well over 110mph in open country.

And in my opinion, that ability to average 80mph over 224 miles is much more impressive than hitting 126 for a short distance anyway.

Sheldon

[rogertra]

A record is something that is documented with accurate pass-times and or dynomometer car readings.

A locomotive engineer claiming to have hit warp speed is not a "record", neither are timings taken from train sheets or other information recorded after a train has passed as these could be "faked" by an agent who maybe didn't write them down for many minutes after the train had passed and therefore made a "best guess" at the time the train went past.

Mallard's record was 'official' because it was timed by numerous people on-board the train, something that wasn't done on any of the other American or European claims.  They are just hearsay.

[Hoople]

Somewhere I heard some engine did 140 MPH.

I'm not sure if that's true, but it's possible.

[trainguy]

I believe that NYC 999 an american standard 4-4-0 holds the US record for speed at 112 MPH this was done I think in 1900

[Mik]

http://www.germansteam.co.uk/Tonup/tonup.html#18201b talks about 100mph+ steam locos...including a recent jaunt in Germany

[Atlantic Central]

Yes, Roger,

That's what I said, it is just hear say, but the science of engineering combined with my personal knowledge of the Lindberg Special's route (I have lived my whole life in central Maryland) tells me that the Lindberg Special had to have made some fantastic times in the open stretches, and it kept it up for three hours, and did not have to be towed home afterwards.

Again, a much more impressive "record" in my opinion.

Sheldon

[lanny]

As has been mentioned, beyond 'offical records' with adequate, documented support, who can say how fast trains have traveled and what speed records exist. I certainly can't argue with the record as stated in the UK report.

The following are two 'hearsay' reports that can be only taken a 'face value' as they are unsubstantiated.

(1) I have been give a photocopy of the page of an engineer's logbook by a dear friend in his mid 80s who was a fireman on the PRR. One winter night during WWII, he was fireman on a milk run (which had passenger train clearance) either just east or just west of Altoona, Pa. The log book records that between two stations about 40 miles apart (don't have the page handy so I can't give names), the just newly 'shopped' K-4, was 'given her head' and averaged 107 mph pulling an unknown number of 50 ft' express milk reefers.

(2) My father, who worked for the ICRR for some years in the late 40s and early 50s once told me that an ICRR engineer had recounted a time when he ran an ICRR 4-8-2 pulling a bannan reefer special from New Orleans to Chicago on the very well maintained 3 or 4 track ICRR mainline (I don't know if CN/IC still has that many mainline tracks now). His 'story' to my father was that for some number of miles, they maintained a steady 110 MPH speed, based on he and the crew in the cab counting the telegraph poles and checking their watches.

Both accounts are 'hear-say', and impossible to prove. But maybe these kinds of accouts are part of the 'romance of the rails'! Frankly, anything as big as a Pennsy K-4 or an ICRR 4-8-2 moving faster than 60 mph would be an awesome sight today (maybe moving at any speed, it would be an awesome sight :-)!

lanny nicolet

[Seasaltchap]

I think Mallard was lucky to be new and still in a sort of "Type Trials" situation.

I think many of the US claims are possily true because the lines were known to have scheduled services at or over 100 mph.

Mallard only held the speed for a matter of seconds and was over 124mph for only 3 miles.

[rogertra]

999's so called "record" is again an  unsubstanciated "record" based on times taken from train sheets, times that could be 'faked' by the agent or operator many minutes after the train passed where he'd write in a 'best guess' estimate of the train's passing time.