Need Help with HO Train

[boystrain]

My brother got all of our old (mostly Lionel, but also my dad's/grandad's old steam engines, etc.) O gauge trains, so my parents bought Bachmann HO trains for my sons when they were little.  We had them all set up at one time on 2 4x8s, so we have alot of track, switches, some bendable track, etc. along with a nice selection of engines (sorry, I know you all probably call them by the proper name!) and train cars, buildings, etc.  As they grew, and we moved (alot) the trains were put into storage and taken out a bit at Christmas time.  I'd like to salvage them, and maybe start a new layout in the bonus room, but I have several problems:

1.  All of our existing track, except for one oval that came with the Harry Potter train, is the old style without the plastic "bed" part.  Is it possible to buy the old type o fBachmann track, or do I have to get all new track with the "bed" on it?  If so, which is considered better, the black or the gray?

2.  Several of the engines do not run now, although they all worked fine when they were put into storage (in a closet in the house, not subject to weather, etc.) and some do work but will not pull any cars.  I'm trying to run them on the new oval of track that came with the HP train, with the standard power source that came with that set.  Is there a way to test the engines to see if the motors are broken?

3.  I don't understand the "DCC" thing except that I realize it is a new sort of power system or something.  Obviously all of our engines are from the early 90's so they are whatever kind of motor/power type that we had back then.  Is that why the old engines don't work well on the "new' track from the HP set that we bought in 2001 or 2002?  The HP engine coupler broke, so it can't pull the cars, and I know I can fix that...

4.  Is it possible to get a more powerful power source so that the trains will run (assuming the engines are not permanently dead) on more than just a little oval without running out of steam? (yes, pun intended!)  I remember the big transformers we had for the "O" gauge - those trains would FLY!

I know this is alot of questions, and I'd appreciate any help on this.  My grandfather retired from the Norfolk and Western, and my father worked for the Norfolk Southern (now Southern) railroad for years, so trains were important in our family and I'd like to preserve the ones we have for my someday grandchildren.....

[jward]

1. while bachmann no longer makes the old type of track, other companies such as atlas, peco, model power and walthers still do. look for nickle silver rail. it is superior to the older brass or steel rail. if you decide to use bachmann track, use the grey roadbed.


2. yes, the motors can be tested. take the body off the locomotive and run test leads from the track to the wires coming out of the motor. if the motor runs and turns the wheels, give the wheels and any contact strips a good cleaning. do not use steel wool or sand paper, but you can use a track cleaning block or tv tuner cleaner.

if the motor runs but the wheels don't turn, look for something that is not seated properly, or a broken gear.


3. dcc is a way of controlling the trains through memory chips, called decoders. each will only respond to commands sent from the command station to it, and will ignore all others. it is kind of like the way your phone only recognises calls sent to its number and ignores everything else.

your older sets should all be dc i don't know why they won't all run on whatever power packs you have . any one should be able to control all your engines. the only thing you don't want to do is to use a lionel pack on HO trains. lionel is ac, HO is dc.

4. yes, there are more powerful power packs out there. look at mrc, they have a full line of dc power packs of varying capacity.

[boystrain]

Thanks!  That's a big help.  I think I will take an inventory of what we have and see if it is worthwhile to stay with the old style track (there seems to be a lot of it!) and if so, clean it and clean the engine wheels to see if that helps with the power problems.  Most of them seem to light up and hum, just won't move or if they move, it is sloooowly and they don't have power to pull any cars.

What kind of tester?  Does Bachmann sell one?  Or is it something you get from the hardware store?

[n6vc]

Make sure you have the track wired to the correct terminals on the power supply. There should be two sets; track power and accessory power. The accessory terminals supply ac power at a fixed voltage around 15 volts. This will not run the DC motors in the locomotives. The track power is a DC current that is regulated with a rheostat.
You can test the engines by turning them upside down and applying one wire from the power supply to one set of wheels (say on the right side) and the other wire to the other set of wheels.
Jon

[boystrain]

I'm sure the power wires are connected to the DC side.  Ours have wire that goes under the post screw at the power source end, and the wires are connected to a plug at the other end.  The plug goes into the track, sort of like a usb port works.  I don't know how I would test with wires because I wouldn't have two raw ends?

[n6vc]

find a couple of pieces of wire and attach these to the power pack.

[Jerrys HO]

n6vc

This link will help.

http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_Workshop/index.htm

Jerry

[Doneldon]

boys-

I'll try to get your answers all complete and all together. And I'll even try to tell you why.

1. Yes, you can use your old brass track with your new track with the attached ballast. You just need to either mount it on some roadbed the same height (cork is inexpensive and good) or gradually bring the old track up to the level of the new-style track. There are slanted cork products for that or you can use layers of cardboard (like shirt cardboard, not corrugated) or a sanded piece of wood. Balsa works well because it is easy to find and it sands quickly. All three styles of track will work fine together. Operationally, the gray ballast, nickel/silver track is the best. Although it doesn't carry electricity as well as brass, it's less prone to oxidization and thus doesn't need to be cleaned as often. The black ballast/steel alloy track isn't so good. Rust is the main reason, but it's also true that steel doesn't carry electricity all that well. Appearance differences aren't much of an issue. Different rail ages and different ballast materials are common on twelve-inches-to-the-foot railroads (the real ones) plus you can use added ballast or paint to mask differences. You can even paint the sides of your rails a dark, rusty brown to conceal the differences. IMHO, however, I wouldn't use the steel alloy at all and I'd want to get rid of the brass if I could afford to do so. If you buy additional track other than the gray Bachmann track, be sure to get "Code 100" rails. That way all of your rails will be the same height (100/1000") which will ease your connections. You might want to consider flex track and separate roadbed, like the cork, in the future to save some money and make your trackwork go a little faster. You'll find lots of information on line and on this board for how to do a good job with flex track.

2. There's a good chance that your old locos will run just fine with a little service. First remove their shells and touch DC leads directly from your power pack to the contact points on the motors. Do this very quickly because you can damage the motor if the mechanism is seized and you continue to feed power. If the motors seem to have some life, try removing all of the old lubricants on any gears and bearings. Oil and grease can congeal over time and plug things up. Once the drive system is cleaned up, briefly test again. If the mechanism works, add a tiny bit of oil to gears and bearings. You are far more likely to use too much than too little so use the smallest drop of oil you think might be enough but only apply half of it. Then seal it all up and have fun.

If the locos still don't work, the odds are that they wouldn't be worth much additional repair unless you can use parts from some of them to get the others going (assuming they are the same brands and the replacement parts fit.) Older locomotives have much less detail and mediocre operating characteristics (things like slow speed running, abrupt starts and jerkiness) and anything less than a complete overhall won't really bring them up to modern standards. And you'll still have the old, poor detail.

There is a slight possibility (I would bet not) that your locos have DCC controls as it started to appear in the early 90s. You'll be able to determine if that's the case when you open your locos up. You will see a finger-sized printed circuit board (PCB) which controls the engine. This component is generally found in the tenders of steam locomotives.

If I may add something, let me say that you may find that your non-loco equipment needs some work, too. You may have the old horn-hook couplers, your couplers may be out of adjustment, or your wheels might be slightly out of gauge. All of those things will interfere with the reliable operation we all seek because repeated  train wrecks just aren't all that much fun. You may decide fairly soon to do this maintenance. If so, I suggest that you convert your couplers to Kadee brand knuckle couplers. They are simply the best and I doubt if many people on this board would argue the point. Or, you can make one car with a Kadee on one end and an X2f (the formal name for the horn-hook) on the other so you can still run cars with older couplers until you get them updated. If you have plastic wheels, strongly consider going to plastic. They will track more truly and slow down the build up of rail crud on your rails and wheels. Last, get yourself an NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) HO track gauge. This will help you check coupler location, wheel gauge, proper spacing (gauge) of rails and turnouts (track switches), and the clearance your trains will need around scenery, structures and tunnels.

3. Your trains almost certainly run on direct current (DC). The transformer for your Lionel equipment puts out alternating current (AC) so don't try to run HO trains with it. DC uses the polarity of the current and the current amplitude (level) to run the motors at different speeds in different directions. With DC, every motor on a given section of track (I mean a length of track which is electrically continuous, not a physical piece of track) will run the same direction and at more or less the same speed, depending on the construction and condition of the different locos on that track section. This isn't much fun so DC modelers break their layout's tracks into electrically-isolated "blocks" which permit more than one cab (power source or pack) to control different engines going different directions at different speeds on the layout. The wiring can get very complex.

DCC is quite different. With DCC, there is always a special form of full-power AC on the track. A command station, analogous to your old power pack in many respects, sends instructions to a special small PCB in each locomotive. That PCB is the decoder. It can tell which instructions are intended for it and which are not. The result is that you can send instructions to several locomotives on the same track and have them move in different directions, if desired, and at different speeds. The wiring for this is far less complex than is wiring a layout with blocks and DC. The trade off is that DCC costs more, quite a bit more. It is certainly the wave of both the present and future. And older locomotives can be updated to DCC, though they are often not worth the time and expense unless they have a particular sentimental value. If you decide to go with DCC at some time, research the available systems which will meet your current and anticipated needs and buy accordingly. Don't make this decision based on cost because the least expensive system will likely not meet your needs over time. There are folks on this board who will take great exception with that statement but they probably won't say anything here because my post is so long. As you go through topics here you'll see that there is a great deal of repetition. That's because lots of folks apparently don't read what others have written. I'm not stating that is true for everybody, but it's obviously true for many.

By the way, you can operate one DC loco on some DCC systems, including Bachmann's EZ Command, but it can be harmful to the loco's health to have a DC loco sitting on a DCC track for very long. Think magic smoke and strange odors.

Finally, think of DC as controlling your rails and DCC as controlling your trains. Hopefull, my descriptions of DC and DCC will help you to understand that distinction.

4. Yes, you can find more powerful power packs for your DC trains. First check the DC output voltage which is on your existing power pack. It will either be on a printed label or embossed into the power pack's shell if plastic. Then look for a power pack with the same DC voltage output, 12-14 volts, but higher amperage. You can run a lot of modern locomotives with two amps but older equipment is much more power hungry (another problem with using older locomotives without a total redo) so you'll want to find at least three amps, or maybe even five. Whatever you do, DO NOT attempt to up your layout's power by using more than one power power pack at a time. That will be a disaster. But remember, high speed is the greatest cause of derailments and unplanned uncoupling. It also leads to trains getting the big head and thinking they can fly, generally off of the train board and onto the concrete floor where they die or at least gain a reason for extensive plastic surgery (both pun and literal meaning intended).

I hope all of this has been helpful. Welcome to model railroading and this board. While there can be a steep learning curve at first,
and some frustration, I'm sure you'll find this to be an interesting hobby which always offers a variety of tasks and something new
to learn and enjoy. It has held my interest for nearly 60 years.

                                                                                                    -- D

[rhbr]

Good advice, one error I noticed. "If you have plastic wheels, strongly consider going to plastic." I think you meant to say convert from plastic wheels to metal.