New York City elevated train motive power in HO?

[Scout]

A company named ITLA makes laser cut wooden kits of the NYC and Chicago elevated train structures in HO and N scale.  NYC motive power was small Porter steam engines. In 1903 the line was electrified with passenger coaches using electric motor trucks were used.  Does anyone have any ideas how I could electrify an off the shelf coach?  The size could be an overton coach or even larger like the Bachman 1880-1920 coach.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

[Piyer]

Scout, the size of car you are looking for are about 50' in length - the first IRT cars with enclosed ends were 51' and change (51'8", IIRC). The open platform cars were built to a stock Manhattan Elevated Railway design with electrical gear added. Quite probably, some or all of them might have been retrofitted steam-service cars.

The Bachmann 1860-1880 open platform coach would be a good starting point for the body.

As for powering it... the Brill trolley might work as a donor mechanism. You could also borrow a page from Athearn's RDCs and rig up a rubber band drive.

If I were to tackle this project myself, I'd go with the brill chassis and scratch build a carbody to match its wheelbase. The most difficult part is the roof, and that could be sourced from any passenger car with the right contours and just shorten it to fit.

Regrettably, pre-1904 NYC elevated lines models are an ignored breed.

For more information, you can try the railfan sites NYC Subway.org http://www.nycsubway.org (source of the photos below) and the Electric Railroaders' Association https://erausa.org -- many moons ago the ERA published a plan book of Manhattan Elevated rolling stock diagrams with all the measurements.

I hope all of this is of some help to you. Modeling them won't be easy, but then again, all the hard work will result in a unique model of pioneering rapid transit equipment.

[Len]

You might be able to use some of these NWSL power units for your conversions:
http://shop.osorail.com/category.sc?categoryId=60

Len

[Jhanecker2]

To Scout  :  I agree with Lens suggestion  regarding using   NWSL   motorized  trucks to use for powering your  car bodies .  They seem to have a wide range of types to accomplish  what you require .   Chicago elevated  cars were also originally  towed by steam locos . The World's Fair was linked to the city by an extension  of the elevated system .  Later the system was electrified .  Third rail power was used for most sections , but overhead catenary was also used in outlying areas .  Some was still used in the Sixties . The Skokie Swift which was part of an interurban line originally  transitioned from  rail to catenary  North of Howard  Street .   Good  Luck on your project  it appears to be doable .   John2.

[Scout]

Thanks all for the suggestions.  I will follow up and investigate further.  Thanks again. 

[J3a-614]

Scout, you're not alone. . .you might like this photo album as an inspiration:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/44268069@N00/

And a group modeling the same (though it may be more strongly O scale):

http://www.nycmodeltransit.org/

A big problem, besides equipment, is the whole infrastructure.  What are you planning to use for the bridgework and third rail gear?  And then there are those switches and even the counterparts of grand union junctions in street railways, all on bridges, all open type construction (which means you see through the track?

It's an ambitious project, but it certainly won't be like much else out there!

And just for fun, an image from the Smithsonian of a non-operating diorama of the New York City el--before third rail.

[Piyer]

Why is there no "love" button on these forums?!

J3a-614's post has probably let the genie out of the bottle / opened up a rabbit hole / set the drool factor to 11.

There is a certain beauty to many of these early railroads. They weren't ubiquitous, they weren't being mass produced to fuel booming expansion, they were unique and their builders and operators took pride in craftsmanship and presentation. It's what piques my imagination when it comes to pre-electrification ELs and antebellum (1820s to 1850s) railroads. And it doesn't hurt that the trains were pike-sized, both in terms of overall dimensions and in train length. Heck, you could even model them in 2-rail O-scale (or larger) and still fit the layout in a modest sized space.

[Piyer]

I went through my files this afternoon and located the diagram book from the ERA. For the curious.....

The passenger cars were 12'3" to 12'6" above the rail, 8'9.5" at their widest, and 46'5.5" long over the coupling pockets - the couplers were link & pin type. The end platforms were 3'5" deep, and the enclosed carbody was 39'3.5". Carbody and end platforms are measured over the frame ends, so there is a 4" difference (assuming I am doing the math right). Wheels are 30", axles are on 5'0" spacing, trucks are on 32'3.5" spacing, and kingpins are 7'1" from the face of the coupling pocket or 6'11" from the end of the frame. The floors of the coaches are 38 and 1/8th inches above the rail, while the baggage car's floor is 39" even. The window glazing is 20"x12" in the upper sash and 20"x24" in the lower, but I am not sure if I trust that. The lowers look significantly taller than they are wide. I'm inclined to say that they were actually 20"x30" - 42" of glass fits with the flat-side height of 7'0".

MofW equipment included a 40'0" flatcar for hauling rail, and a 20'0" gondola ash car (34" high sides) with a drop hatch between the trucks.

As for the locomotives, there are 10 classes in these diagrams: Class A thru J. A & J were 0-4-2 tank engines with 38" and 39" drivers respectively. B thru I were 0-4-4 tank engines with 38" (B&C) or 42" (D to I) drivers. They were 92, 93, or 101 inches wide, and 10'6" to 12'9" tall at the stack. Weight fully loaded ranged from 33,000 lb. to 47,000 lb. / 16.5 to 23.5 tons. Length ranged from 22'7" to 26'9".

[Scout]

You guys are great to spend the time to provide me with inspiration/ideas.  That Smithsonian diorama is superb.  My preliminary idea is to do a point to point set up with a station at one end.  The company that makes the el structure has a 90 degree curve kit but the track radii are 10 and 12 inches.  Would flex track bend that much? 
Lots of questions to be addressed.  Planning is key I suppose.
Thanks again to you guys for your help.

[Len]

I've made 9" radius trolley tracks using Atlas code 83 flex track, so 10" and 12" radius shouldn't be a problem. One thing I did was use a piece of 1/4" plywood to make a form to bend the track around, then pinned it in place to let some of the stresses work out before putting it on the layout.

Remember, radius is measured to the center of the track. So subtract half the width of the track from the radius before laying out the curve of your forms, if you use them.

Len